For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#811

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

tetromino_ wrote: post #663

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post highlights something I can't grasp; your post is explicitly and openly racist, yet you are complaining about racism. Why is that? "People are recommending a book by an author." Fixed that for you. I'll give you the BLM, that's an instance of necessary discrimination. The rest ... if the authors advice is wrong, criticise it, if the book or person does something bad, criticise it. Don't just pick out the ski…

You can most usefully talk about a topic you have extensive personal experience with and which forced you to think about the topic deeply. I can usefully talk about MySQL because I used it in a multi-year project that pushed its performance to the limit. I cannot usefully talk about Cassandra - the most I have done with it is install it. Similarly, I can usefully talk about the experience of a male Russian immigrant…

>"I may suggest that to find out about the experience of black Americans, it's best to refer to the words of actual black Americans" //

Absolutely.

And to say "this opinion is not grounded in experience" is a worthy note, but doesn't make their conclusions wrong.

As a generality people suffering a situation aren't able to take a measured approach - emotion gets the better of us - so it's not just a case of experiencing a situation. Not being subject to something doesn't discredit your viewpoint.

If you tell me I need to do sharding to improve my database performance, or whatever, and I say "this is a database of Chinese people, your opinion is invalid as your not Chinese" then I'm just being xenophobic.

People can have way more in common with others of different skin colour than they have with someone of the same colour. It's a people issue.

Focusing on segregating people's arguments by skin colour, rather than by validity of their arguments is so antithetical to the whole object of removing unnecessary discrimination that's why I felt I needed to comment, and I stand by that comment.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#812

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

taurath wrote: post #736

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As long as you're white, the richer you are, the less likely you are to go to jail for it. Rehab is for rich people. // Any sources to support this, that equally wealthy people go to jail in higher proportions - for the same [drug] crime - if they're non-white?

I couldn't find one for drugs specifically, but this link is a decent one: https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2018/02/the-race-g... The probability of being jailed for more than a year is over 20% for the poorest 20% of Blacks, and just over 10% for the poorest 20% of whites.

From that link:

>He concludes, “[T]hese disparities are primarily driven by our racialized class system. Therefore, the most effective criminal justice reform may be an egalitarian economic program aimed at flattening the material differences between the classes.” In other words, while building a more progressive economy won’t end the horrors of racism, it may be the pathway to a less discriminatory criminal justice system. //

That appears to closely match my position.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#813

Post by ttepasse » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

What_wonder wrote: post #727

bkandel wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in America in the 21st century, white Jews are treated pretty much like any other white person. I would say that there are some subtle cultural things that make me feel a bit "other", though. For example, sports teams called the "Crusaders": In the Jewish collective memory, the Crusades were an awful time. Crusaders rampaged through many Jewish communities, murdering many thousand of Jewish people and destroying t…

The Crusades were also a response to Arab invasions into Europe, during a time when Vienna, practically the center of Europe, was besieged twice by the Ottomans, and the entire Iberian peninsula was conquered and held for more than half a millennium by Muslims (and Constantinople/Istanbul still is). Many border countries had children regularly kidnapped into slavery by Ottoman raids (or had to turn them over as part…

The Ottomans existed centuries _after_ the crusades, timing the raids and the Vienna sieges after the crusaded. Does time work different where you life?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#814

Post by sidlls » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #802

sidlls wrote: post #798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"100% of white people are advantaged by racism." No, this is an extraordinary claim without evidence that you are asserting. "You may find it hard to notice the advantage it gives you, but it certainly exists," isn't carefully worded, and it's designed to effectively squash any sort of disagreement with the assertion in the first place.

> No, this is an extraordinary claim without evidence that you are asserting. There are libraries worth of literature on the subject. I encourage you to spend some time seeking it out and understanding it better. > isn't carefully worded, and it's designed to effectively squash any sort of disagreement with the assertion in the first place. It was carefully worded, but you don't seem to be interested in coming to the…

Have you considered that you are making assumptions (e.g. that I have not done reading on this subject) or that you are making personal accusations (e.g. that I may not recognize advantages) based also on assumptions? That perhaps my interest isn’t in fighting but merely challenging your assertion and assumptions?

It appears to me you take the position that you are correct, and that any challenge is necessarily one coming from a position of ignorance or malice. I invite you to re-think your approach to this sort of conversation.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#815

Post by js2 » Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 1:05 AM UTC

gfxgirl wrote: post #331

js2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

Where do you live? I have no idea what it's like to be Jewish but I have Jewish friends and have had Jewish bosses. I couldn't tell them apart from any other white people in the area. If they hadn't told me they were Jewish I'd never have known nor cared. I certainly didn't treat them different. At what point are we all just different? I can't meet people that are into my particular hobby. I also go to clubs and bars…

I live in NC. Judaism is more than just a religion. For many jews, it's part of their identity. That makes it different than going to clubs and bars or game dev events. It's a sense of exclusion that I feel at times, especially being in the bible belt.

I've never had any particularly anti-semitic things happen to me, just a few minor incidents. But anti-semitism still happens to jews, and that affects me. For example, after the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting a couple years ago, my temple had to hire an off-duty police officer during our high holiday services so that temple members would feel safe. I have family members who attended the Pittsburgh temple.

My mother experienced anti-semitism growing up in NJ that is part of her psyche to this day such that she's not comfortable wearing any jewish symbols.

This is nothing like the black experience, and I don't mean to say that it is. But it gives me some empathy for what it must feel like to be marginalized, to be different.

That is all I was trying to say.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#816

Post by js2 » Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 1:11 AM UTC

bkandel wrote: post #636

gfxgirl wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live? I have no idea what it's like to be Jewish but I have Jewish friends and have had Jewish bosses. I couldn't tell them apart from any other white people in the area. If they hadn't told me they were Jewish I'd never have known nor cared. I certainly didn't treat them different. At what point are we all just different? I can't meet people that are into my particular hobby. I also go to clubs and bars…

So in America in the 21st century, white Jews are treated pretty much like any other white person. I would say that there are some subtle cultural things that make me feel a bit "other", though. For example, sports teams called the "Crusaders": In the Jewish collective memory, the Crusades were an awful time. Crusaders rampaged through many Jewish communities, murdering many thousand of Jewish people and destroying t…

> So in America in the 21st century, white Jews are treated pretty much like any other white person.

No, that's just not true. Yes, we have the privilege of being white. But hate crimes still happen to Jews. America still caters to Christians.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#817

Post by js2 » Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 1:14 AM UTC

seppin wrote: post #512

jsharf wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christmas feels weird to me -- It feels vaguely exclusive.

I mean no offense by this, but the jewish experience in America doesn't compare to the black experience. In 99% of cases you are just another white person.

I'm certainly not trying to compare the two at all. But I can think about times I've been treated as an "other" or not catered to because I'm not the majority and draw empathy from that.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#818

Post by js2 » Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 1:16 AM UTC

eru wrote: post #474

js2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

> I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. Being in a minority is not enough. I'm a 'minority' where I live, but nowhere near oppressed. Just the opposite as far as I can tell.

You're right. It's way too late to edit my comment, but it's the sense of being excluded or being seen as less-than because of my Judaism. It's the knowing that Jews were and sometimes still are hated just because they are different. It's not just being a minority.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#819

Post by js2 » Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 1:23 AM UTC

hanspeter wrote: post #488

js2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

> I also never realized what it must feel like to be a Christian in America until I visited Israel for the first time I'm pretty sure white atheists in America feel equally among "my people" as Christians do (unless they're in a church or other highly religious surroundings). It's also an odd comparison as religion is a choice, where race or ethnicity is not.

For most Jews, Judaism is more than a religion. It's core to our identity for many of us. All of the Jews who died in the holocaust didn't have a choice to just stop being Jewish.

To be clear: I'm not trying to compare being Jewish to being Black. I'm saying that I can draw empathy from the Jewish part of my identity toward other people who have been mistreated because of part of their identity.

Also, even if it were a choice, I would no more give it up than anyone else should have to give up their race or ethnicity or any other part of their identity just to fit in.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#820

Post by js2 » Sun, Jun 21, 2020, 1:28 AM UTC

zerr wrote: post #514

js2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Jewish. This gives me no insight into what it is to be black in America. But it does give me some insight into what it is to be a minority in America. I have an inkling of your loneliness and you have my profound sympathy. I wish everyone could experience what it is to be a minority in some, any, aspect of their identity to the extent that it might provide them some empathy for others. (I also never realized wha…

I guess you're mixing up the religion vs ethnic origin? I mean, if we put the religion aside, can we say the same about e.g. Irish or Italian Americans?

The Jewish experience is multi-faceted. And yes, as far as Irish or Italian Americans were treated as non-white in the early 1900s, and that they remember that experience, and that it gives them empathy to what it must be like for other minorities, then yes, we can say the same thing.

I'm only trying to draw empathy from my Jewish experience, that is all.