Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them • Hacker News Board

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#311

Post by ntsplnkv2 » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 4:00 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #291

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That makes no sense. Apple didn't create the market segment, but because those people choose to use iPhone, you can't sell them an email service that doesn't work on iPhone. Make the email service work on iPhone. There are more than 2,000,000 apps in the App Store. There's no reason to think they're being unfair with that many in there. If you can't make an app and follow the rules there, tough luck. It's not fair…

>It's not fair to the developers that don't make shovelware otherwise >In any case, crap apps would flood the market - consumers would get worse experiences, and be less likely to buy apps. Free apps will decimate quality applications. And you'll get the playstore or android, a malware infested UI nightmare. How would apple lowering their feeds, allowing a competing app store, allowing sideloaded apps, or allowing ap…

> How would apple lowering their feeds, allowing a competing app store, allowing sideloaded apps, or allowing apps to have subscriptions outside of apple pay make it easier for crappy apps to make it to the app store?

Apple is a company that is fully dedicated to product.

Lower fees = lower barrier to entry = crapware, this impacts the product. Sideloaded apps are a dangerous vector for malware (https://cybersecuritymag.com/sideloading-malware/), this impacts the product. It's not right to offer an app that doesn't allow subscriptions through the app store, this impacts the product.

The fact is we have a case study in what a non-walled garden looks like, the dumpster fire that is Android, with wildly differing levels of quality, confusing applications from different vendors, a terrible play store experience, etc. It's quite clear how we get to B.

Allowing a competing app store is implicitly supporting that app store - meaning if it bricks your phone, or installs malware, it hurts the user experience of Apple, and the product.

> If there's a competing app store and it's so permissive that it turns into low quality nightmare, then customers will keep using the apple app store. I don't understand how you're getting from A to B.

So back at square one, you see the problem? People WANT curated app stores. They want ONE app store to buy their apps. They don't want to download 10 app stores for 10 different apps. This ruins the product. A, meet B.

The App Store is as much a product as the iPhone. It's a product for developers to quickly, easily, and safely reach consumers to make more money. If you don't like the product as a developer, it's too expensive, or you don't like the agreement, create a web app. Safari can open it just fine. Or release only on Android, it has a huge market.

The fact is, we should not be punishing business unless there is a malpractice by the business that can't be remedied by the market - this is clearly not the case here. It is developer sour grapes because his overpriced mail app tried to cheat the system.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#312

Post by alkonaut » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 6:23 AM UTC

jpttsn wrote: post #301

alkonaut wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a very cumbersome a way of getting what I want. It’s much better and easier if e.g the EU simply makes Apple do the right thing by force. The market doesn’t solve this kind of problem.

Indeed. And if my local restaurant doesn’t have a nice table for me, it’s much easier if Tony Soprano can have a little talk with the owner.

How is doing something illegal at all related?

To me, “laws” are something the majority massages into a state where they benefit the most people. This looks like one of those cases. Changing the laws (or in this case probably just enforcing them) is different from acting outside the law or breaking laws.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#313

Post by chrisco255 » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 8:14 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #289

chrisco255 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_09_... https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-f...

Care to quote the part where the US government forced the browser choice screen like the EU did?

Did I ever explicitly say the US in my comment? No. However, the entire case against Microsoft was built on its anticompetitive practices against Netscape. And Microsoft lost.

In the US, "The proposed settlement required Microsoft to share its application programming interfaces with third-party companies and appoint a panel of three people who would have full access to Microsoft's systems, records, and source code for five years in order to ensure compliance."

By having full access to the API, MS could no longer give IE special privileges (for example, being the only default browser choice when a link is clicked to be opened). At any rate, it's not a stretch to imagine similar movements towards Apple's app store. The parallels are quite similar.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#314

Post by jpttsn » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 11:06 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #260

mstolpm wrote: post #163

In my opinion, developers do have the right to articulate critics - be it towards Apple or any other gatekeeper. Just stopping to use/develop for a platform isn't enough. However, I feel the discussion often misses a central point when it is focused on "developers" against "Apple" (or be it Google): the interest of the customer. Of course, a developer wants to maximize return, as wants Apple. But what about the users…

Should Apple ban non App Store apps from Macs too? Doesn't your argument extend to computers? Why would phones or tablets be different.

I hope they don’t, but if they did I would either accept it, circumvent it (jailbreak) or stop using Macs. It’s their choice and I’m entirely informed.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#315

Post by jpttsn » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 11:17 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #30

> The Solution for Consumers > Stop buying iPhones There's the problem with this argument. Consumers are suffering, but don't realize it. The lack of competition, and the increased cost to developers, are depriving consumers of innovative products like Hey, but they don't know it. You can't expect consumer to know when they buy a phone, that it will cause a future company to fail to launch an innovative new product.…

>Will cause to fail

Is what seems so entitled about this thing.

If your company/innovation relies on free access, but in reality that access costs 30%, your idea is not solid.

Suppose there’s no iPhone. No customers bought it. They all want to run arbitrary software. In this world, is Hey a good idea?

If that’s not the world you live in, should you invest in Hey pretending it’s another world?

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#316

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 11:30 AM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #313

scarface74 wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to quote the part where the US government forced the browser choice screen like the EU did?

Did I ever explicitly say the US in my comment? No. However, the entire case against Microsoft was built on its anticompetitive practices against Netscape. And Microsoft lost. In the US, "The proposed settlement required Microsoft to share its application programming interfaces with third-party companies and appoint a panel of three people who would have full access to Microsoft's systems, records, and source code fo…

I specifically said in the comment that you replied to “Nor were they required to allow other default browsers in the US.”

The parallels aren’t similar. Apple has less than 50% market share in the US and even less in Europe. Every console maker does the same as Apple.

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#317

Post by type0 » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 12:14 PM UTC

> Let’s say we tear down Apple through legal means–we send them the message that because they’re so successful they no longer have a right to dictate their own terms around what apps they allow on their devices ...

Their devices? So you can only rent your iPhone?

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#318

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:17 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #232

pinkfoot wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course its relevant: you said the EU intervenes when people complain to stop corporate dominance and abuse. Lots of people complained. The EU did nothing. Truly - Microsoft office is as dominant as it ever was. It the EU has an anti-monopoly/dominance purpose, if MS Word/Excel/Powerpoint isn't its white whale, its hard to imagine what would be. And the GDPR is being similarly defanged.

But are you ignoring other laws from EU or country specific that worked ? If you do not know let me give you some example "web browser" the reason you are not commenting this from IE is because of law makers that stopped Microsoft abuse, the reason Intel is not a monopoly and charge you 2 times more for 10 times less is because lawmakers prevented it. For GDPR you need to wait before you conclude, it is similar to la…

[deleted]

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#319

Post by jbsmsk » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #232

pinkfoot wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course its relevant: you said the EU intervenes when people complain to stop corporate dominance and abuse. Lots of people complained. The EU did nothing. Truly - Microsoft office is as dominant as it ever was. It the EU has an anti-monopoly/dominance purpose, if MS Word/Excel/Powerpoint isn't its white whale, its hard to imagine what would be. And the GDPR is being similarly defanged.

But are you ignoring other laws from EU or country specific that worked ? If you do not know let me give you some example "web browser" the reason you are not commenting this from IE is because of law makers that stopped Microsoft abuse, the reason Intel is not a monopoly and charge you 2 times more for 10 times less is because lawmakers prevented it. For GDPR you need to wait before you conclude, it is similar to la…

>"web browser" the reason you are not commenting this from IE is because of law makers that stopped Microsoft abuse, the reason Intel is not a monopoly and charge you 2 times more for 10 times less is because lawmakers prevented it.

Did you even try to be honest? In no way Microsoft did ever prevent competitor browsers from being installed. Nobody forced, forces or will force you to use IE, no matter the EU. It was typical EU bureaucratic socialist bs, doing the thinking for the user and of course in the end just sucking rich American tit by fining because they create nothing and just want to run those who do. Just like Soviet Union.

Also, I don't need "Mother EUSSR" telling me who collects data/uses cookies and ruining overall browsing experience. It's funny how their efforts are actually counter productive, because it's near impossible to browse the net in private mode (the one thing that ACTUALLY prevents data collection, not the useless cookie agreement pop-ups).

Re: Quit whining about Apple and just stop using them

#320

Post by simion314 » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

jbsmsk wrote: post #319

simion314 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But are you ignoring other laws from EU or country specific that worked ? If you do not know let me give you some example "web browser" the reason you are not commenting this from IE is because of law makers that stopped Microsoft abuse, the reason Intel is not a monopoly and charge you 2 times more for 10 times less is because lawmakers prevented it. For GDPR you need to wait before you conclude, it is similar to la…

>"web browser" the reason you are not commenting this from IE is because of law makers that stopped Microsoft abuse, the reason Intel is not a monopoly and charge you 2 times more for 10 times less is because lawmakers prevented it. Did you even try to be honest? In no way Microsoft did ever prevent competitor browsers from being installed. Nobody forced, forces or will force you to use IE, no matter the EU. It was t…

Dude MS and Intel got in trouble with US too. What MS did with IE is the same anti competitive thing they are doing now and what Google does, they offer free stuff runining smaller competitors, they can offer free stuff because they use their dominance in one market to force their products on other market.

So if I want to make a good video hosting platform I need to compete with Google, but Google is using their search dominance to offer YT for free so I can't compete fair with them. Same if I want to make an IDE or web browser, I am forced to compete with Chrome and Visual Studio Code, free stuff paid with money from other markets, so when all competition is killed you get the IE case where shit stagnates because there is no competition.