You download the app and it doesn’t work • Hacker News Board

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#471

Post by acituan » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #386

acituan wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it unethical to charge a fee to developers who want to distribute their software through an app store that Apple owns? Developer don't necessarily want to distribute their software through that app store, they are forced to do that if they want to sell their software to people who happen to use that operating system. Operating system and app store are distinct products, but app store exclusively gatekeeps th…

So you increase the price of your app by 30 to make up for Apple's cut%. It's called business. It happens all the time in every single industry. If a business' property taxes go up, that cost is passed on to its customers. Why do people think that because something is on a phone that it should be any different?

> It's called business. It happens all the time in every single industry

And we call those situations market failures. Besides, in this case the market failure is due to a monopolistic mechanism, which doesn't happen "all the time in every industry". If we are going to do markets, let's do it properly.

Increasing price %30 causes a corresponding decrease in the demand, and in aggregate this can cause a decrease in the total profit. The fact that the developer is forced to set a new price point this way is a source of inefficiency for the entire app economy.

Besides forced price increase is not the only harm done by the monopoly of the App Store. As this website exemplifies, it has monopoly over ontological decisions (whether a certain type of app can exist or not), over design decisions (signups, in app purchases etc) and whatnot. These are further points of inefficiency or outright failure. Apple might or might not be doing a good enough job making the best out of these decisions, but the bottom line is we don't have a choice of another player emerging with potentially better choice-making and therefore a better app store.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#472

Post by jpttsn » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #467

jpttsn wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s obviously intentional. I’ve never heard about Hey. Then today, first they post something else and now someone defrosts this tired whine about Apple monetizing, and Hey (whatever it is) tops the list. Sigh. Good work marketers, people seem to buy it.

They didn't change anything in their app. How could they have known that Apple would suddenly enforce a rule on them that they had not previously enforced?

“So how do we raise awareness”

“Well, let’s ask Apple for some workaround for the 30%, skirt the rules a bit”

“They’ll never go for that”

“Of course not, but while it lasts we’ll get 30% more. Then once we get rejected, sooner or later, we’ll write some blog posts and suddenly a bunch of nerds will see us as the brave underdog“

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#473

Post by rydre » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

jfoster wrote: post #372

realtalk_sp wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any statistics breaking down how frequently mobile users access email via a PWA versus a dedicated app? Also surveys on the difference in user experience? If not, please refrain from disingenuously advancing obviously problematic ideas. It adds nothing to the conversation.

It's not as though a statistic about how frequently mobile users access mail via a website is a measurement of some universal value. If that's the only way for iOS users to use Hey, then would find some users who are willing to do that. What's wrong with this being put forward? I would go so far to say that this is one of the four main things that happen when an app is rejected from an app store. 1. Change the app. 2…

Apple intentionally doesn't support many the functionality required by PWA's.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#474

Post by hejja » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

thatMurcia99 wrote: post #450

nodamage wrote: post #190

While I agree that Apple should probably relax their rules, this list of "exceptions" is not particularly compelling. The majority of them are companion apps for physical products/memberships for which the rules around in-app purchases do not apply: Tesla, Soho House, Wells Fargo, Blue Cross / Blue Shield, WeWork. Github has a free tier and doesn't require a paying membership to use. Netflix is a digital content app…

Why is Netflix different? Sending email is distribution of “digital content”. This old game of wobbly semantics to describe “organizing electrons in silicon” is pretty much done isn’t it? Society has hit an information entropy. Where the masses get one message “austerity” while the elites tirelessly bike shed the rules, struggling to maintain their old epistemology as they die off from natural causes, which is exting…

what a difficult comment to read

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#475

Post by rydre » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:25 AM UTC

jpttsn wrote: post #243

dgudkov wrote: post #76

On a side note, I don't know whether it's intentional or not, but the whole story is a great marketing campaign for HEY. Clashing with Apple made everybody learn about the app in a matter of days.

It’s obviously intentional. I’ve never heard about Hey. Then today, first they post something else and now someone defrosts this tired whine about Apple monetizing, and Hey (whatever it is) tops the list. Sigh. Good work marketers, people seem to buy it.

It's every independent developers benefit. The guy "DHH" - also the maker of ruby on rails said that he wants the rules to be consistent and changed for EVERYONE.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#476

Post by rydre » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

moooo99 wrote: post #115

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #2

It's a good thing for Apple that WWDC isn't in-person this year. I wouldn't trust the developers in the audience to stay quiet and applause at the announcements this year...

I'm surprised that Hey! managed to create such a big public outrage about that issue. Years ago Spotify complained about the very same thing and given that Spotify has a much bigger userbase I kind of expected the outrage to be bigger. I suppose a large share of the potential Hey customers work in tech and might have a better understanding of what the app store tax actually means. And the EU anti trust investigations…

Everyone is tired of Apple's nickel and diming. This was the last straw that broke the camels back.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#477

Post by hejja » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:30 AM UTC

arduinomancer wrote: post #175

Why is Apple's revenue here even percentage-based at all? It makes zero sense. According to Apple they need this revenue cut because of the cost of keeping the platform running. If I offer a subscription in my app for 1$/month vs 10$/month what marginal expense is being incurred that apple deserves an extra $2.70 for the higher price?

this is a salient point, fixed rate would make much more sense

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#478

Post by baddox » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #449

baddox wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think gaming consoles are general purpose computers. You listed a few things that probably aren't done very often on consoles (although you likely can do them, since consoles have web browsers). But it's also easy to list things that are much better-suited to be done on a gaming console than a smartphone.

> I think gaming consoles are general purpose computers. This is a contrived point of view, and I'm sure the product managers at Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Apple, and Google would all strongly disagree. Remember when the PS3 used to be used for super computing? Sony quietly ended that program when they realized that wasn't the business they wanted to be in.

I don't mean that consoles are the best device to do any computing task. Of course they aren't, and of course smartphones also are not. I'm also not making some technical claim, like that they are Turing complete (of course they are, but that's not really relevant). What I mean is that I do not consider modern consoles to be "single-purpose computers." They're more like "the computer for your living room," and they can and often do handle all sorts of media/entertainment and communication/socializing (which, let's be honest, is a huge part of what smartphones do). They can also handle home automation. If you consider "anything you would want to do on your living room TV" to be a single purpose, then sure, but you could construct the same definition for a smartphone.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#479

Post by rydre » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

kllrnohj wrote: post #454

echelon wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming consoles aren't general purpose computers. You're not going to do banking, email your boss, find a lover, or order groceries from them. They're unnecessary leisure commodities. There are also three major consoles, PC, Steam, and a ton of other ways to distribute games. It's a highly competitive landscape. If you want a phone, you've got only two options. DOJ, burn the Apple and Google monopolies to the ground.

> If you want a phone, you've got only two options. That's not true at all. There's 2 primary OS choices, but on the Android side there's dozens of manufacturers, all with their take on things. Android is not a single option, it's hundreds. You even have choice of app stores. There's even options that have zero Google at all - like the Huawei P40 Pro. Or for an older take, silent cirlce's Blackphone or Amazon's Fire…

Android if Google as far as I am concerned, for now. Lets hope Huawei gets it's store off the ground fast. But for now: no Google Play Service, and Android is a brick.

Re: You download the app and it doesn’t work

#480

Post by acituan » Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #291

realtalk_sp wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's cost to maintain this ecosystem can't be anything close to the insane $50B in App Store revenue they hauled in last year.

I'm well aware it isn't close to what they make, but they are entitled to their profits too.

And users are entitled to better app stores. In other words, users are entitled to chose between businesses according to their abilities in utilizing their profits to deliver more value.

If there were competing app stores available on iOS, then we could say they are really entitled to that profit. But we don't know how much of this profit reflects the value they brought versus the rent they were able to get due to gatekeeping the only bridge into iOS-land. So no, we can't for sure say they are entitled to the entirety of that profit.