Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#241

Post by xiphias2 » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:50 AM UTC

josho wrote: post #102

antoncohen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might be other examples, but Basecamp doesn't fit. Most Basecamp users don't pay for Basecamp, a company does. It is like Jira, individual users don't pay for it. Basecamp also has a limited free plan, as does Jira Cloud. Hey is currently only for individuals, there is no free option, every user must pay. (I'm not defending Apple taking a cut of subscriptions. Just pointing out a difference.)

I think you nailed it. All the consumer subscription apps I could think of offer in app purchase. While the apps that target businesses do not. It seems Apple is enforcing their rules to selectively target consumer oriented apps. Which, from a consumer point of view I appreciate it. I like Apple subscriptions. However, for the businesses selling the 30% cut is hard to stomach.

Hey is taking $10/month. With $7/month revenue going to them they will still be the most expensive email app available, so I don't see why it would be so hard to stomach.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#242

Post by xiphias2 » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 6:56 AM UTC

jonbeebe wrote: post #190

Why don’t these rules apply to banking apps then? I wouldn’t consider them business-only as most individuals interacting with the App Store have bank accounts, so that argument breaks down. I wouldn’t consider them stictly “reader” apps as you can perform many non-passive things in many banking apps (make deposits, iniatiate transfers to and from accounts, pay bills, etc), so that argument doesn’t stick either. You c…

You need to go though KYC and other custom checks to get a bank account and it's a heavily regulated process.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#243

Post by odensc » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:02 AM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #241

josho wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you nailed it. All the consumer subscription apps I could think of offer in app purchase. While the apps that target businesses do not. It seems Apple is enforcing their rules to selectively target consumer oriented apps. Which, from a consumer point of view I appreciate it. I like Apple subscriptions. However, for the businesses selling the 30% cut is hard to stomach.

Hey is taking $10/month. With $7/month revenue going to them they will still be the most expensive email app available, so I don't see why it would be so hard to stomach.

$99/year != $10/month. It's $8.25/month. Also something like Fastmail is $9/month (or $90/year) with 100GB of storage (which is what HEY provides) - so it's actually pretty competitive pricing.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#244

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:05 AM UTC

arvinsim wrote: post #240

scarface74 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea about how Nintendo and all of the console makers treat developers. Roku won’t let commercial streaming apps on their platform without making a deal with them.

Seems to be a case of whataboutism. Just because someone is doing it doesn't make it any less wrong.

It’s how the industry has worked from day one. “Wrong” is an opinion. In a legal sense it’s “precedent”. This is how the entire industry works. Before Apple, software developers only got a 30% to 40% cut to be in carriers app stores. Yes they had app stores where you could buy J2ME apps. Most retailers have a far greater wholesale to retail margin than 30%.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#245

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:06 AM UTC

arvinsim wrote: post #238

scarface74 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s talk about console makers then..... How many stores actually “transparently” tell you their markup?

Then perhaps laws should be updated to reflect the digital age? I wouldn't mind one bit if there would be a general inquiry for practices of all app stores.

So we want government price controls.....

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#246

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

stephc_int13 wrote: post #223

scarface74 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simple fact is that Apple is injecting itself as an intermediary in the payment process and extracting a preposterously oversized commission for no meaningful added value. You mean like every retail store - digital and physical?

Do you know the margins of retail stores? Last time I checked it was not close to 30%

You’re right. It’s 25%.

https://www.quora.com/How-much-do-game-companies-make-from-e...

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#247

Post by xiphias2 » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:09 AM UTC

odensc wrote: post #243

xiphias2 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey is taking $10/month. With $7/month revenue going to them they will still be the most expensive email app available, so I don't see why it would be so hard to stomach.

$99/year != $10/month. It's $8.25/month. Also something like Fastmail is $9/month (or $90/year) with 100GB of storage (which is what HEY provides) - so it's actually pretty competitive pricing.

Sure, $8.25/month, but for fastmail you just picked the most expensive option that most people don't need. $5 is standard pricing.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#248

Post by cdmckay » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:17 AM UTC

donmcronald wrote: post #202

scarface74 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s talk about console makers then..... How many stores actually “transparently” tell you their markup?

Tim Sweeny [1]: > “There’s a rationale for this on console where there’s enormous investment in hardware, often sold below cost, and marketing campaigns in broad partnership with publishers.” I guess it really just comes down to console makers acting like a partner whereas Apple acts more like a mobster running a protection racket. 1) https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/3/17645982/epic-games-fortni...

Apple invests an enormous amount into R&D to make their devices. For example, they make their own CPUs, which happen to be some of the fastest ARM chips you can get.

I don’t think it’s any different from consoles. The main difference is that with a console you know what the deal is.

With an App Store app, the problem is you don’t know if Apple is going to deny your app on an inconsistently applied rule after spending 2 years making it.

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#249

Post by gamblor956 » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:22 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #246

stephc_int13 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know the margins of retail stores? Last time I checked it was not close to 30%

You’re right. It’s 25%. https://www.quora.com/How-much-do-game-companies-make-from-e...

You may be surprised to learn that retail stores pay the manufacturers for their products (at "wholesale" prices), and are free to sell them at whatever markup they wish.

Thus, retailer margin can vary anywhere from negative (doorbusters) to 1000% (i.e., alcoholic beverages).

Re: Apple rejects appeal from email app Hey

#250

Post by xlii » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 7:51 AM UTC

KiwiJohnno wrote: post #237

xlii wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s fair to use Netflix as an example. Netflix is big enough to make their own rules. We don’t see internal business arrangements but I wouldn’t be surprised if there would be flat fee between Apple and Netflix to settle that. Hey is trying to do just exact same thing but surfing on the verbosity and not business power per se.

Isn't that exactly the problem here though? A big business like, say netflix has enough clout to get what they want. A smaller business or an individual has no option but to get screwed by apple because they have no power. Shouldn't we be fighting for a level playing field?

That depends on ones philosophy. It's a driver vs passenger issue.

Big companies such as Netflix, Disney etc. are drivers, they have impact on the user base. If Netflix stopped working on Apple's devices we would see huge outflow of users.

Hey on the other hand is a passenger. Sure, they might have 50k users in the queue, but them not being on Apple's platforms will probably shrink this number significantly. It's unlikely that Android users will switch to Apple because of the Hey experience.

From that it boils down to personal views. If one thinks that driver should have the same amount of power as passenger this scenario is upsetting.

Yet this is not universal view and I'd argue that the opposite view is the "norm". We have celebrities who can get more while spending less, specialists in the fields who have a lot of bonuses average Joe doesn't and well known businesspeople who have access to business which are out of reach. Do you imagine having 1.8b$ debt ? And yet Donald Trump was in that position long before he became POTUS.

Hey is exercising the same stuff. They want to become celebrity to slide. They don't fight for the change of rules. They fight for Hey to be approved.