For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#791

Post by ilkan » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #494

dgb23 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't believe how lonely it is. In my team of 150 people, we were two black people. This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I believe these painful interactions would be much less common if tech culture were more diverse in the first place. Women share a similar fate. Whenever I hear some of these stories I cringe. Some of them are surprising/shocking even. But this seems important. Hearing those storie…

> This is a huge part of the problem isn't it? I think this is the problem. Say a black guy with gold teeth, tons of tattoos and colorful dreadlocks and a middle aged white guy walk in. One of them is a rapper. Who is it? Based on experience, most people will certainly assume the black guy is. What if it turns out it’s the white guy? Are they unconsciously racist against white people or are they just following experi…

The attempt at hidden messaging in the way the "who is it" question is posed, is _exactly_ the problem.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#792

Post by vinay427 » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

neonate wrote: post #790

vinay427 wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're actually correct in how you used it, as a native English speaker, although I think "need not be" is the preferred/correct form. I think this expression is a little less common in the US compared to the UK.

"Needs not to be" and "need not be" have sharply different meanings. "Racism need not be voluntary to be racism" would have been a perfectly clear and eloquent way to make the GP's point. But that extra "s" in "needs" changes the meaning entirely, at least in American English. Are you sure that this is not also the case in the UK? I'd be very surprised.

I agree that those are different, but I subconsciously read it as "need not be" and later assumed it was a mistype of that, not "needs not to be," as it's closer to the former than the latter.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#793

Post by seppin » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

qdiencdxqd wrote: post #637

seppin wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rweblFwt-BM He calls climate science a "racket". Why are you encouraging people to listen to him?

Just because you don't agree with everything he says doesn't mean he's not worth reading :) Don't judge a book by its cover, nor a man by his edgiest quotes.

If a man says the earth is flat i'm not going to waste any time listening to what his other opinions are.

I had never heard of this guy before so I gave him a chance, turns out he's just another in a long line of contrarian for the sake of being contrarian conservatives.

Nothing of value here.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#794

Post by seppin » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:17 PM UTC

greenhatglack wrote: post #498

eyelidlessness wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't even watch the clip, but if a THREE MINUTE clip is discrediting, you're either discredited on your ideas or catastrophically bad at presenting them in the format.

Right, and nothing can be ever taken out of context or edited to fit a narrative in this day and age? Seriously, I have to argue that context is a thing?

Nothing about his political denial of science is out of context. If the video was 30 min of him denying climate change or 3, that doesn't change anything.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#795

Post by eyelidlessness » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:22 PM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #787

eyelidlessness wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother and I grew up in a world that sounds similar to yours. I’m not negating your experience. The fact that you and I have privilege doesn’t negate our own hardships.

You’re playing a bit loose, here. When you write that 100% of whites are advantaged, you are engaged in exaggeration that erases the practical reality. It is true that our system is structured to advantage whites. It does not necessarily follow that all whites are equally advantaged (other things being equal) or that all whites live a life in which they experience these advantages.

On the contrary, I'm choosing my words and considering their meaning very carefully. This topic is too important to "play loose".

100% of white people are advantaged by racism. I didn't claim that all experience that advantage equally, and I didn't claim that the advantage negates any other disadvantages each individual white person experiences due to the specifics of their lives, their class or social status, any number of other systems of identity-based power, or even countervailing individual prejudices.

You may find it hard to notice the advantage it gives you, but it certainly exists.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#796

Post by seppin » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #588

seppin wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean no offense by this, but the jewish experience in America doesn't compare to the black experience. In 99% of cases you are just another white person.

What do you mean by "black experience"? I'm not used to American culture and I have heard this expression several times. Is it only a skin-color thing or does "black" mean a different culture/tradition? I mean, if a black baby is raised by white parents on a 100% white neighborhood, will he live the black experience? Conversely, if a white baby is raised by black parents on a 100% black neighborhood, will he live the…

Yes my friend who is black who lives in a big house in a rich area gets pulled over by the police at least once a month and harassed.

Her upbringing and class doesn't matter.

This is common: https://www.cnn.com/2015/04/02/us/chris-rock-pulled-over-pol...

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#797

Post by dheera » Thu, Jun 18, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

hckr_news wrote: post #784

dheera wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"well-meaning friends—mainly other Black entrepreneurs who faced similar challenges—suggested that Givens add a White man as a co-founder." I'm not black, but I'm also not white, and I've been suggested this numerous times as well by well-meaning people after our startup not being able to fundraise for several months but some of our white-male-founded competitors had successfully raised. One friend was even joking ab…

This reminds me of a Nairobi-based startup who tweeted a job posting in which they were looking for a white male to join their team to act as a face for the business. I don't know if it was in jest but it was hilarious and sad.

This is basically what DJI did. Sad world but I bet they wouldn't have gained so much traction and investment if their marketing wasn't always full of white people using them (they did this right from the very beginning).

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#798

Post by sidlls » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 3:28 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #795

sidlls wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re playing a bit loose, here. When you write that 100% of whites are advantaged, you are engaged in exaggeration that erases the practical reality. It is true that our system is structured to advantage whites. It does not necessarily follow that all whites are equally advantaged (other things being equal) or that all whites live a life in which they experience these advantages.

On the contrary, I'm choosing my words and considering their meaning very carefully. This topic is too important to "play loose". 100% of white people are advantaged by racism. I didn't claim that all experience that advantage equally, and I didn't claim that the advantage negates any other disadvantages each individual white person experiences due to the specifics of their lives, their class or social status, any nu…

"100% of white people are advantaged by racism." No, this is an extraordinary claim without evidence that you are asserting.

"You may find it hard to notice the advantage it gives you, but it certainly exists," isn't carefully worded, and it's designed to effectively squash any sort of disagreement with the assertion in the first place.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#799

Post by sfj » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

titzer wrote: post #759

sfj wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well to honest your post was the textbook definition of victim blaming. It was hardly a "premise." With absolutely zero evidence you flat out accused them of wrong behavior (dressing wrong, acting wrong) instead of considering their situation on the facts they presented. That is victim blaming. I didn't accuse, I simply asked a question. How are you so sure that it must be racism? Why are you trying to shame me for…

> I didn't accuse, I simply asked a question. Yeah, in exactly the kind of snooty passive-aggressive way that climate-deniers are just "asking questions". I didn't want to come out all hot at you and gently encouraged you to consider having more empathy, but here we are, down a spiral of your increasing defensiveness and hostility. This is now totally about how you feel slighted for being challenged on your victim-bl…

> Yeah, in exactly the kind of snooty passive-aggressive way that climate-deniers are just "asking questions". I didn't want to come out all hot at you and gently encouraged you to consider having more empathy, but here we are, down a spiral of your increasing defensiveness and hostility. This is now totally about how you feel slighted for being challenged on your victim-blaming.

Will you listen to yourself? You're creating this enormous fiction out of a few innocent questions. I even said it could also be racism.

> It's clear that you don't agree with this person and already have pre-formed judgments, and that constantly surfaces as outright incredulity. It's difficult for you to process how infuriating that is for minorities who do experience racism to have to fight their way through a lack of shared experience and a wall of denial masquerading as "asking questions". Asking questions isn't "listening", it's just pushback. Racism is real. Listen to people to experience it.

All I wanted was some more information. Yes, it does sound kind of odd, doesn't it? Aren't there a lot of black fliers around? Does it really happen that they are being frisked that much? Maybe he's flying out of one airport much of the time and the staff doesn't like him for some reason.

> Please, could you just let people who are close to the situation talk instead of putting yourself in there and muddying the waters?

I'm not stopping anyone from talking. I just put forth my point of view, same as anyone else. Why are you so upset about me sharing my thoughts?

Is this really all that serious anyway? I've been frisked, too, multiple times. Why does it have to become some giant emotional cryfest?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#800

Post by evrydayhustling » Fri, Jun 19, 2020, 5:33 AM UTC

the_omegist wrote: post #770

evrydayhustling wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are they unconsciously racist or are they just following experience-based heuristics? Both! Today's discussion about racism isn't (mainly) about critiquing the motivations in peoples' deepest heart. It's about acknowledging that the outcomes of this kind of assumption can be racist, regardless of whether any harm was intended. The person who is assumed to be subordinate, or less educated, or more prone to criminali…

> Today's discussion about racism isn't (mainly) about critiquing the motivations in peoples' deepest heart. It's about acknowledging that the outcomes of this kind of assumption can be racist, regardless of whether any harm was intended. Words have meaning. If an act wasn't done with a racist motive then it isn't racist. As the previous commenter said, it's just heuristics : they can be more or less in tune with rea…

Most of this thread - and the entire concept of "systemic racism" - is about outcomes that impact minorities, not about what drives specific individuals to stereotype.

For what it's worth, I agree that people shouldn't be villified for having evolved heuristics. Many people who care about - and especially many that have been directly harmed by - systemic racism are extremely realistic about how common these heuristics are. But, once you are aware that some of your heuristics harm others, you do have a revealing choice to make.

People go against evolved heuristics all. the. time. Often to make society work, which is itself an evolved impulse. Our layers of evolved reasoning are in constant conflict. Should I eat this thing that's tasty or impress that potential mate? Should I stay home and lie on the couch or keep my job and the respect of my family? Should I punch the guy who cut me off or stay out of jail? It's disingenuous to say, "I manage all of those things, but I'm helpless about my assumptions based on race."

We talk about things like anger management and racism in order to develop new heuristics that let us thrive together efficiently. You don't have to suppress your internal guess about whether someone is a rapper if you learn to invite people to introduce themselves. You can invest in confronting your biases in high stakes situations like performance reviews and project assignments, when you should be engaging your cognition anyway.

> The self-perpetuation will stop by itself when people's experience change.

This is a literally saying "the beatings will continue until morale improves". What makes it self perpetuating is that people can't disprove stereotypes with a boot on their neck.