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For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

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Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#341

Post by Grustaf »

notahacker wrote: post #258
Grustaf wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. Why is it so terrible to accept that men and women on average have different interests? Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent, why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.

Is it conceivable that men and women have different average personal preferences [partly] for reasons which are linked to biology? Certainly, though nobody in this thread has suggested that can't be a factor. Is it plausible to assume that STEM fields and female participation is a case where stereotypes have very little effect? I think I'd need some pretty strong evidence for the idea stereotypes had little effect on…

Perhaps nobody said it explicitly, but when you see a difference in outcome, computer scientists are mostly men for example, and draw the conclusion that there must be discrimination and stereotyping then you indirectly say that it can’t be due to difference in preferences.

Also, I would think that the person that claims discrimination would have the burden of proof.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#342

Post by Larrikin »

DenisM wrote: post #282
nouveaux wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a publicly traded company is not doing well, the CEO gets canned and no one bats an eye. If one department is not doing well, it's very common to just fire a bunch of people or get rid of the department completely. The idea of "dismantling of police" does not mean we do not offer protection. It just means that the current organization "police" is not providing the services it's customers want. Years of "tweaking"…

> the current organization "police" is not providing the services it's customers want Is that really true? What do you think will happen if we put it up for a vote? Something like: defund police - yes/no?

The people who have faced the discrimination, know people affected by it, or have educated themselves about the discrimination will vote yes and the people who have not faced the discrimination and want to believe its mostly made up because they have never been personally effected by it will vote no.

20 years ago its easy to see how the vote would have ended up, but now with tons of cell phone footage and large scale protests its interesting to see which side people will land on now.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#343

Post by gowld »

busterarm wrote: post #270

I used to work for a regional ILEC and everyone in the company was required to do regular ridealongs with the installers to get a better understanding of the customer base and their needs. Me (a white guy) would frequently do ridealongs with some of our black installers and I would see this kind of treatment from customers regularly. I wasn't dressed like I was doing install work (business casual) and was clearly you…

Did you learn anything from the customers? Isn't it obvious what phone customers want when they ask for phone service? It's not a complicated custom product for the user.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#344

Post by sfj »

charlesu wrote: post #244
0zymandias wrote: post #213

It seems like people from other ethnicities/countries have done well in Silicon Valley, e.g. India, China, Iran. Notably, CEOs of Google, Microsoft, Uber and others are brown-skinned. Would they have done even better without the racism? Or what accounts for the difference?

The difference is hundreds of years of slavery and institutional discrimination specifically target toward blacks and all the accompanying cultural baggage. Part of that baggage is a deeply ingrained suggestion that black people are intellectually inferior but innately athletic. That isn't to say that other ethnic groups don't deal with racism too. But it's different. An African American executive in a suit may be mi…

> The difference is hundreds of years of slavery and institutional discrimination specifically target toward blacks and all the accompanying cultural baggage. Part of that baggage is a deeply ingrained suggestion that black people are intellectually inferior but innately athletic.

How can you say this with complete certainty? How could you ever be sure?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#345

Post by anticonformist »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

What is currently causing huge divides and limiting progress is the incredibly flagrant accusations of racism where none exists.

There is nothing racist about confusing two people for each other based on them having the same skin tone. A two year old child might do it. This should be enough proof for anyone that the cause is not racism but the brain's pattern recognition system failing.

Accusing someone of racism used to be a serious charge. Now its used by many against anyone who makes any misstep where race is involved. This is diluting the charge the point of meaninglessness which provides cover for actual racism. It also repels people who see through it.

If someone mistakes two blonde people for each other, no reasonable person accuses that person of being bigoted against blondes on that basis. Their brain simply lumped those two people together using an inaccurate heuristic.

A black person without much exposure to asians might have trouble telling asians apart. A white person without much exposure to black people might make the same mistake.

In neither case is there even a hint of racism. Ignorance is not racism. It's perfectly okay not to have exposure to people of any race. Not living in a "melting pot" does not make someone a bad person.

It's also perfectly okay to have a brain that isn't great at distinguishing between people. This is just how human brains are and is nothing to be ashamed of. It is not grounds for guilt. And it's not grounds to accuse anyone of something as serious as racism.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#346

Post by gowld »

shrubble wrote: post #308
cheez wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who runs a team and hires according to these lines: - Management: Europeans - Coding: Russians - QA: Indians He will not consider that he might be wrong here.

How successful is his team? He might be suffering from confirmation bias if he is good at interviews/choosing people.

It's not that hard to hire. Most roles don't need amazing candidates.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#347

Post by sfj »

gowld wrote: post #340
sfj wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever think it might be the way you dress or your demeanor? Obviously, it could be racial also, but how could you know that?

Why would that matter?

Isn't the implied assumption that he is being treated that way simply because he's black?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#348

Post by Grustaf »

Pfhreak wrote: post #242
Grustaf wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. Why is it so terrible to accept that men and women on average have different interests? Everyone knows that testosterone makes young men orders of magnitude more violent, why is it inconceivable that they could also be 4 times more interested in more mechanic play? It’s been observed even in almost newborn chimpanzees for Gods sake.

> No normal parent has said anything even remotely like that in the last 30 years. You haven't been exposed to a very broad range of parents. I've seen parents who very tightly control which toys, clothes, and grooming choices their kids make because they don't align with the parent's gender expectations. It's frustratingly common in the US.

Well I only had one set of parents myself that is true. But do you actually think that the reason 9 out of 10 computer scientists are men is that almost all parents tell their daughters to stay away from STEM fields? How does that tally with the female representation in medicine and biology?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#349

Post by conductr »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

I’ve not gone over the background content you have. Why is a simple but sincere apology not enough? Why do I have to make myself feel like a horrible person for this subconscious faux pas?

Yes it’s an embarrassing. But to me, it’s like when meeting someone and you reach to shake their hand using your right hand out of habit but you don’t realize their right hand is full thus creating a awkward handshake interaction (especially if they don’t quickly offer a twisted left and laugh it off).

I’d prefer to focus on the problem (underrepresented black CEOs) instead of a symptom (subconscious “racism”).

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#350

Post by gowld »

0zymandias wrote: post #213

It seems like people from other ethnicities/countries have done well in Silicon Valley, e.g. India, China, Iran. Notably, CEOs of Google, Microsoft, Uber and others are brown-skinned. Would they have done even better without the racism? Or what accounts for the difference?

Asian immigrants largely pass through a selection filter of wealth and education before they can immigrate (in tech at least, thanks to H1-B), so the ones you see have largely been preselected and show up in a large peer group.

The Chinese or Indian person next to you at work who came to US on an H1B or education visa was much more elite in their home country than you are in yours, on average.

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