For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business • Hacker News Board

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#201

Post by wottamap » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

scollet wrote: post #192

adjkant wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Blacks that believe cops are out to kill them will be more likely to resist arrest and get killed. Statements like this make it clear that this opinion is either highly uneducated or clearly not in good faith. Time and time again, black people in America will tell you that they have to sit their kids down and explain in fine grain detail what do to if the cops pull them over so they are not killed, a conversation v…

I would also like to highlight > Society pretending that there is massive racism when there isn't is itself structural racism. If you believe you cannot succeed due to all this racism, that will be sulf-fulfilling. Blacks that believe in widespread racism will be less likely to go to university and get a job The grandparent is victim-blaming PoC for not having the "Right mentality". The comment itself is what has bee…

I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming all the white people who are scared to death of being seen as racist and who eagerly point out minor behaviours and scream "racism." I'm not blaming blacks for these beliefs, I'm blaming the society that drills them into their heads.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#202

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

Anthony-G wrote: post #149

quadrifoliate wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a less rhetorical answer, that might help some people if not the OP – as an Asian man in America, I have to worry about people making stupid jokes about my perceived culture, but usually not about getting the police called on me and being shot dead because I'm examining a BB gun that is on sale at Walmart [1] (sometimes, there are exceptions [2]). BIPOC puts this group of people (Black and Indigenous) as a separat…

Thanks for the explanation. As a European observing from afar, I hadn't come across the BIPOC acronym until I started reading this thread. I was also unaware that police violence against native Americans was such big a problem as described in the CNN article.

I'm black and I haven't come across the BIPOC term either. But it does a good job of encapsulating the differences in how society treats and processes visible minorities. Asian folk have their issues, but there isn't the same aspect of "assumed criminality" that is faced with black and indigenous groups.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#203

Post by OzzyB » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

commoner wrote: post #173

_8j50 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, my point is, there is a big difference between intent and subconscious thought process. The latter can be fixed with apologies and education as you alluded. but the former can't and unless you believe someone intended the offense, you should not be offended. And the obvious answer to why I didn't apologize and why in the article they didn't apologize is because it makes them uncomfortable but more importantly,unl…

If you would prefer to withhold a deserved apology to avoid being perceived as "weak", that's your prerogative. However, making a sexual stereotype and then refusing to acknowledge it is a means of perpetuating sexism. It's true that systemic change is needed to eliminate sexism and racism, but society does not change all at once: every action (including every apology) contributes to the solution.

OP isn't weak he's simply pointing out that a simple "opps sorry" isn't enough for radicals like you.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#204

Post by franctic » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:00 PM UTC

JPKab wrote: post #92

chongli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the trouble here is the double meaning of the word racist. When some people hear the word, they think of cross-burning fanatics and mass murderers. On the other hand, the current big conversation is about how everyone is racist and that society is rife with systemic racism. That creates a catch-22 for anyone who commits a faux-pas (like mistaking the black CEO for a subordinate). Either admit to racism and ca…

" I honestly don't know what to do about it though." That's a major criticism I have of the crusaders against "systemic racism." While I think the term is intended to capture the accumulated, "death by a thousand cuts" set of disadvantages that are faced by marginalized groups, it characterizes the problem in such a way that it makes it seem intractable. This is a perfect framing for politicians and activists, whose…

This point of view is out of line with my experiences surrounding discussions of systemic racism. My experience has included detailed demands with qualitative and quantitative targets made at my place of work, codified changes in the structure of the police department in the city I live in, and new state laws regarding use-of-force passed in the last few weeks alone. I think there’s lots of discussion going on around what will enact effective change (and what won’t), which is fair, but I feel your painting with a very broad brush to say people are crusading and assuming the problem to be intractable. Hard for me to imagine all this effort coming from people who think there’s nothing to be gained.

I’m not sure I fully appreciate the point your making with breaking down the idea “America is inherently racist.” Outside of Twitter I’ve encountered exactly zero conversations that start and immediately end with such a statement. Of course things like qualified immunity and equitable education come into play - these topics have been heavily discussed in the public sphere for decades! To link them in this case to speak to a community’s broader experience seems both reasonable and necessary.

For a light hearted analogy — say I get a burrito from a taqueria on Monday and shit my pants and then go back Tuesday for tacos and shit myself again. When I’m retelling that story on Wednesday over sushi, you’d better believe I’m using the name of the restaurant.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#205

Post by wottamap » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:02 PM UTC

jgwil2 wrote: post #137

wottamap wrote: post #115

The messages that need to be said right now are very difficult to say because people have steeled themselves. But they need to be said. This is not meant to be flamebait, I truly deeply believe these messages need to be heard and understood, so please understand that I'm speaking in good faith here. If you feel strongly that I am wrong, please reply with well thought out reasons why. I will listen. Articles like this…

> Blacks that believe in widespread racism will be less likely to go to university and get a job. > Blacks that believe cops are out to kill them will be more likely to resist arrest and get killed. Do you have any evidence for these assertions? I would be surprised if so, particularly with respect to the second, since police killings are notoriously difficult to gather data on, but I would certainly be interested to…

No, not on this specifcally. But there's plenty of psychological research that shows (for example) that if you tell kids they are gifted, they perform much better.

Whether this psychological effect is more or less damaging than the racism is probably undeterminable. But because society widely believes the racism is the bigger problem, and my instincts run the other way, I'm taking the other side.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#206

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:02 PM UTC

birdyrooster wrote: post #162

chongli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the trouble here is the double meaning of the word racist. When some people hear the word, they think of cross-burning fanatics and mass murderers. On the other hand, the current big conversation is about how everyone is racist and that society is rife with systemic racism. That creates a catch-22 for anyone who commits a faux-pas (like mistaking the black CEO for a subordinate). Either admit to racism and ca…

Try approaching someone in denial about their alcoholism and talk about alcoholism they will act very similarly. These people need rehab.

I think that's a reasonable analogy but I draw the opposite conclusion from it. If you divide the world into alcoholics who need rehab and normal people who don't, you end up with a lot of people who refuse to admit they have a drinking problem because they don't want to pay the social costs of doing so.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#207

Post by somethoughts » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:03 PM UTC

itronitron wrote: post #151

somethoughts wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - perhaps if the current big conversation was rephrased as "everyone is biased and that society is rife with systemic bias" - people would be more willing to agree that its a problem and agree that they are part of the problem and would be more willing to be involved in solving it. To be honest - everyone, no matter who they are, makes judgements and has biases.

Well, there are people that are racist. They are easy to spot because they make no apology about that. There is also systemic, or institutionalized, racism and the current state of law enforcement in the US is a prime example of that. What is interesting is how the systemic racism bleeds into everyone else's minds to form or reinforce their biases. If we can eliminate systemic/institutionalized racism then I would ex…

Yes definitely there is a group of people who are outright racist in the typically defined sense. And the group which can self-identify as racist is probably very small (unfortunately).

The group which can self-identify as biased is probably much larger (fortunately?). The challenge is that by naming/labeling the big discussion systemic racism, its possible for a much larger (and perhaps more influential) group of people to blissfully ignore the big discussion being had about both systemic racism and systemic implicit bias - the latter of which to a certain extent the original article seems to be about.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#208

Post by throwaway-1977 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:03 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #21

I thought this was a great article. One of the most interesting things to me was how the embarrassment/defensiveness of the white people involved was one of the biggest blocks to the black CEOs in their advancement, e.g. the VCs who "just wanted to get the hell out of there" after mistaking a white subordinate for the CEO. I've recently been reading/watching some videos and writings by Robin Diangelo on systemic raci…

If I made that mistake I would be terrified of ever meeting a black founder again

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#209

Post by nouveaux » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:06 PM UTC

nsporillo wrote: post #174

claudeganon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Robin Diangelo’s work doesn’t seem to me very good or well informed on what anti-racism actually constitutes. It seems mostly like a schtick to sell to HR managers. The way that she essentializes race seems like a bizarre, inverted reification of whiteness (and by extension white supremacy), than any deconstruction or attack on it. Anti-racism is about taking on the powers and material structures that reproduce racis…

What exactly are the powers and material structures that contribute to the perceived racism in our society? From my limited understanding of this position, it sounds like the goal is a dismantling of police and courts which form the backbone of a civil rule of law society.

If a publicly traded company is not doing well, the CEO gets canned and no one bats an eye. If one department is not doing well, it's very common to just fire a bunch of people or get rid of the department completely.

The idea of "dismantling of police" does not mean we do not offer protection. It just means that the current organization "police" is not providing the services it's customers want. Years of "tweaking" the police orgs have failed to provide results. It's time to create a new way to protect citizens.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#210

Post by chipotle_coyote » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

Thorentis wrote: post #183

How is it racist to assume that in a country of mostly white people, the CEO would be white? That isn't racist. Unless you consciously thought the black person in the room was less competent just because they were black, it isn't racism. If I was in India, and walked into a company meeting with a diverse set of people, I would assume the Indian looking person is the CEO. If I was in Japan, I would assume the Japanese…

You're effectively claiming the following: if two people who both "look like CEOs" (setting aside exactly what that means for now) walk into a meeting with you, you know one of them is indeed the CEO, and one is white and one is black, you are going to assume that it's not a sign of even subconscious racism to assume that the white person is the CEO because the population of the country is mostly white.

So. One immediate problem, from statistics alone, is that the people you are meeting with are not drawn from a random sampling of the population. There is clearly a 50% chance that one of those two unknown people is the CEO. (If it were 3 people, a 33.33% chance, 4 people a 25% chance, and so on.) So I don't think your reasoning is sound.

Also, the end result of your argument is "the black person in this group isn't likely to be the CEO because they are black," and, well. I get that you're trying to arrive there through what you think is pure mathematics, but it is nonetheless the kind of conclusion that I believe the kids call "problematic."