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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#511

Post by malandrew »

bradlys wrote: post #492
malandrew wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? It's worth noting and emulating. Punishing success is the path to mediocrity. Instead other groups should take note and ask themselves "what should our community be doing so that we can also emulate the success that that group has had?" Any solution that doesn't involve trying to trying to ge…

You're ignoring what I spoke about and sidelining it into a discussion about how we should want to emulate Asian culture because it has lead to success for them. You're ignoring how problematic that culture is. It isn't a culture that can be emulated across the board because it's inherently exclusionary. It's not that these groups of people who have risen to the top are helping everyone - they're only helping their o…

You're looking at this way too narrowly.

The dichotomy isn't between helping people outside your community or within your community.

That dichotomy I'm highlighting is between having a culture of helping one another or not having that culture.

The communities that aren't helping those within their community, typically aren't helping people outside their community either. There are plenty of cities and neighborhoods in this country where there isn't much community service, participation in the community and taking pride in helping your community succeed relative to other communities out there. I grew up in a predominantly Jewish town as a kid. The level of involvement from the parents in the school system was off the charts. Since moving away from that community, I've never once seen anyplace else that came even close to that level of civic involvement.

It doesn't even have to be community based on race. It can be as simple as volunteering in your neighborhood or city.

Communities that grow rich have a culture of service to one another whether that community is delineated along racial or geographical lines or if that community is global. The size of the group or whether there is exclusion or not is orthogonal to my point. This culture change is easiest to begin at home and within your community.

One of the big differences I've noticed between liberals and conservatives is that with liberals, community starts with the world, then moves to the country, then the state, then the county, then the city/town, then the neighborhood, then the family. With conservatives it's the opposite. Community and obligation to one another begins with the family and moves to the neighborhood, then the city/town, then county, then state, then country and then world.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#513

Post by muzaffarpur »

csa wrote: post #354
yasp wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most. I was under the impression that SAT prep doesn't move the needle much. Am I mistaken?

You are greatly mistaken, although it does depend on the quality of the preparation. I have seen scores improve 100-200 points per skill on average for middle range scores, and 50-100 points per skill for higher range scores with quality preparation. Reasons: - familiarity with test format - improved test taking strategies - familiarity with test content - developing the mental stamina to perform at a high level thro…

although? Or the most important factor is, quality of prep. A man/women who have continuously, kept practicing to improve academically, becomes insignificant. However, keep throwing ball in hoop would help math and science innovations. This is absolutely insane.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#514

Post by blisseyGo »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #504
aiisahik wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true? Also you suggest that language fluency might be a factor? Read the study [1]. Here's an abstract: > Across nine studies (n = 11,030) using mixed methods (archival analyses of chief executive officers, field surveys in large US companies, student leader…

> You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true? Accuse is a strong word, but basically yes. Maybe it's a visceral reaction to something I have hear one too many times, that Asians don't face discrimination in tech because "Look at Satya and Sundar" (not exactly what you said). But the point is tha…

> Here, we can be shot by random guys in bars because they think we're Iranian

Cherry picking a single occurrence where someone shot someone for racist reasons is not how science works plus this has nothing to do with the discussion.

Microsoft, IBM, Google, Adobe, Nokia, Harman, MasterCard and PepsiCo etc all have Indian (minority) CEOs. Apple has a gay CEO. Claiming there is some bias against minorities is absurd.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

whites kill whites, blacks kill blacks, asians and south asians kill their own.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#515

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

aiisahik wrote: post #482
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with laying bare this purpose of these institutions is it destroys their credibility. If everyone knows it's just a social club, and that is formalized, it loses its prestige. It's beneficial to students who are enrolled due to family gifts that some students are enrolled due to being truly academically skilled. It furthers the impression the gift-giving segment may be skilled as well.

Again, it's the prestige of the social club that gives them credibility - not the academic excellence of its students. The students who have mediocre grades but very rich parents actually might actually have a better chance at success and bring more prestige to the university than the academically excellent student who have poor parents.

That might be too much of a reduction. You need academically successful members of your institution to get eye-popping headlines like "X discovered at University Y". Those PR pieces are partially responsible for the prestige. Concur on the point of family wealth helping institutions.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#516

Post by hindsightbias »

memexy wrote: post #502
hindsightbias wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s all Asians, not just poor. Now, it won’t matter and Asians will be eligible for only 5% of the pie. Anyone poor won’t have the means to play the subjective system, and any left/liberal admin officer/provost in the Ivy’s knows that. Champagne corks are flying tonight.

What exactly is the benefit of these exclusionary tactics in your opinion? If there is indeed some conspiracy over excluding certain groups what could the administrators possibly gain from conspiring like this?

Most rich people are white and most legacies are rich whites. More rich, more legacies, more donations, more buildings, more grants, more money for the polo team. More opportunites for you to mingle with rich folk, curry favors.

Rich whites were less threatened when they could game the system, but once Asian Americans began to become overly represented per capita academically and Affirmative Action lawsuits on descrimination against Asians began working up the courts... problem solved now.

There’s no outright conspiracy, these people know their position and what’s best for them. They’re probably not bad people but they’re not going to give away what they’ve got.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#517

Post by turtlecloud »

bradlys wrote: post #466
dartdartdart wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-asian for sure, probably not as much anti-white since white applicants can get lower academic scores than Asian people and still get accepted. Discriminating against a minority that makes up only 5% of the population is ridiculous.

You'd have a stronger argument if that 5% was still "only 5%" of the colleges. But, it's closer to 15-30% of the student body. That's true at most top colleges across the country AFAIK. When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? No different than any other demographic - I'd hope. I'm for fair admissions and I'd hope race would not be a…

That’s what most minorities feel like most of time lol. Imagine being a Latino guy in a school that majority white.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#518

Post by whotheffknows »

amvalo wrote: post #495
whotheffknows wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-i...

What are you saying "No" to? This article says it may have been from the 80s?

I guess I'm saying no to your attempt to distract from the fact that you can pay alot of money to pass these tests in addition to not having proof there is esoteric terminology people growing up on poverty despite being good students might not be exposed to.

This would be obvious to you if you've ever taken the SATs.

What point are you trying to make? You should make it. Right now you are knitpicking. Even if you are right only it was that one instance it sets precedent for economic power structures graduating students inherit in the workforce for years to come.

I just don't understand your prioritization of feedback which seems to be entirely focused on distracting from the comment.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#519

Post by memexy »

hindsightbias wrote: post #516
memexy wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is the benefit of these exclusionary tactics in your opinion? If there is indeed some conspiracy over excluding certain groups what could the administrators possibly gain from conspiring like this?

Most rich people are white and most legacies are rich whites. More rich, more legacies, more donations, more buildings, more grants, more money for the polo team. More opportunites for you to mingle with rich folk, curry favors. Rich whites were less threatened when they could game the system, but once Asian Americans began to become overly represented per capita academically and Affirmative Action lawsuits on descri…

Makes sense.

How would you change the incentives to make what you described less viable?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#520

Post by whotheffknows »

ylem wrote: post #249
TrackerFF wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not useless, but it's rather that when everyone's scoring high, it's not the best measure to differentiate candidates. What happens in other countries, where they only use grades/GPA, is that you start using more decimals - but then again, that's only useful when the size/population of "perfect" scores is low enough. If you have 10000 students with a perfect 4.0, and 2000 spots, then it's obviously impossible…

Ok, so you think that say some state schools it might work ok, but not at say Stanford or Harvard. What about say folding in AP exam scores?

Not every school has AP classes. In fact there's a direct correlation with AP classes existing in schools in neighborhoods where income is higher.

This is why MIT got rid of considering Subject II tests because even on top of already relatively wealthy select schools that offer AP classes only a select few of those offer classes that prep you for subject II test.

It's essentially exponentiating the amount of opportunities rich kids have to slice themselves within percents different from other rich kids at their school but overall entirely leaves behind students who weren't lucky enough to born in a neighborhood with a tax bracket that determines the schools funding.

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