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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#491

Post by aiisahik »

jankyxenon wrote: post #344
aiisahik wrote: post #242

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The poi…

I dunno why race is the primary organizing principle for a college.

It's not.

The real question is why do people assume that academics the only factor in admissions?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#492

Post by bradlys »

malandrew wrote: post #479
bradlys wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have a stronger argument if that 5% was still "only 5%" of the colleges. But, it's closer to 15-30% of the student body. That's true at most top colleges across the country AFAIK. When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? No different than any other demographic - I'd hope. I'm for fair admissions and I'd hope race would not be a…

> When you're getting close to 5-6x the national rate and nearly a third of the university, it's gotta be worth noting, right? It's worth noting and emulating. Punishing success is the path to mediocrity. Instead other groups should take note and ask themselves "what should our community be doing so that we can also emulate the success that that group has had?" Any solution that doesn't involve trying to trying to ge…

You're ignoring what I spoke about and sidelining it into a discussion about how we should want to emulate Asian culture because it has lead to success for them.

You're ignoring how problematic that culture is. It isn't a culture that can be emulated across the board because it's inherently exclusionary. It's not that these groups of people who have risen to the top are helping everyone - they're only helping their own. How should that be a desirable thing unless you're also selfish and discriminatory?

If anyone is only helping those of their own race rather than helping anyone - it's a problematic culture. (And - inherently - racist)

College is a zero-sum game. You either get in or you don't, and there is a limited amount of space. It would be nice if everyone treated each other as a cohesive whole rather than splitting up in groups as you've labeled and desire people to do. That attitude is what creates more divisiveness and tribalism.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#493

Post by quadrifoliate »

aiisahik wrote: post #485
quadrifoliate wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Asians also need to push back a little against the "there are too many Asians in tech" viewpoint. We face a considerable amount of racism and underpromotion (especially into management roles), but there is rarely any activism that's directed towards resolving these problems. A lot of initiatives I have seen in tech explicitly exclude Asians, so I'm wondering if there's initiatives directed at us.

Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? Only East Asians are underpromoted. As and East Asian myself, I believe (1) You should read this article and study: https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chine... (2) there are plenty of Asians in tech. The real under presentation is in sports and entertainment. Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audit…

> Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind?

This rather specious argument comes up so often I am going to start calling it the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" (sorry Arvind!). Do you also dismiss the concerns of women not being promoted into management roles by citing the examples of Mary Barra and Marissa Meyer?

The US as a whole is very different from Silicon Valley. If the number of people making cow worship jokes at various jobs (here in the middle US) I have heard is any indication, I have a hard time believing they are also simultaneously giving Asians a fair shake at promotion.

Regarding your points – I do believe that East Asians are likely underpromoted relative to their number in tech. One question that's not covered in there is language – of my friends who are first-generation immigrants, the South Asian ones generally have better English than the East/South-East Asian ones.

> there are plenty of Asians in tech.

I...wasn't arguing otherwise. My point was about not being promoted as fast as their counterparts, and into management roles.

> Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they?

I don't know about parents, but plenty of South Asian actors have had problems getting auditions. Read about how Kalpen Suresh Modi's auditions skyrocketed when he Anglicized his name to Kal Penn [1], and how Aziz Ansari has had trouble with roles where he's required to fake an accent [2]. East Asians have had a hard time with getting roles in movies that are about East Asians, which was why Crazy Rich Asians was such a landmark (in that it actually had an Asian cast). [3]

[1] https://www.usnews.com/news/obama/articles/2009/04/08/10-thi...

[2] https://ew.com/article/2015/10/25/aziz-ansari-transformers-a...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/08/movies/crazy-rich-asians-...

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#494

Post by blisseyGo »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #493
aiisahik wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? Only East Asians are underpromoted. As and East Asian myself, I believe (1) You should read this article and study: https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chine... (2) there are plenty of Asians in tech. The real under presentation is in sports and entertainment. Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audit…

> Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? This rather specious argument comes up so often I am going to start calling it the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" (sorry Arvind!). Do you also dismiss the concerns of women not being promoted into management roles by citing the examples of Mary Barra and Marissa Meyer? The US as a whole is very different from Silicon Valley. If the number of people makin…

Women being promoted less has nothing to do with being under-promoted on purpose but more to do with women not asking enough for promotions and also willing to give credit to others instead of taking the credit themselves. And this is also not just true about women, it's also true for men who are shy or scared of speaking up for promotion. This applies to first generation immigrants too - often because they might be too self conscious of speaking up.

Companies don't simply give away promotions easily - you have to ask for it and also show why you deserve it. Otherwise whoever speaks up the most and is willing to ask for it gets it.

One thing I learnt at one of my work places from one of the senior managers was how to climb up the ladder. He said the most important thing is to keep a folder on your computer/email where you forward all customer emails who thank you for the outstanding job you did or coworker feedback on how helpful you are or team leader feedback on how awesome you have been. It's very similar to resume except this is the resume for climbing up the ladder at your existing work place. And ask for promotion as soon as you think you deserve it. Also be humble but don't be a door mat where you give away the credit of your work to someone else. Take credit yourself. I did these for many years and always climbed up. I also improved my english and got more confident at speaking up (I am a South Asian immigrant and could barely speak english when I first arrived).

Jordan Peterson's advice has helped me tremendously too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HqvbdOWpc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6UKSLH8-ao

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#495

Post by amvalo »

whotheffknows wrote: post #462
amvalo wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking about the Oarsman-regatta thing? That was 2 decades ago...

No. https://www.clearchoiceprep.com/sat-act-prep-blog/the-most-i...

What are you saying "No" to? This article says it may have been from the 80s?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#496

Post by quadrifoliate »

aiisahik wrote: post #488
quadrifoliate wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Asian who kind of understands your viewpoint, I'm conflicted and unsure about this. Us Asians are in a weird place, because as a statistic we're very successful, but also subject to a fairly wide range of discrimination inside and outside the workplace. We already a harder time breaking into "Good Old Boy" all-white institutions, and I have lost count of the number of casually racist anti-Asian things I ha…

Sorry you encountered racism. That sucks and hope you work with better people in the future. As someone who lives in the US but was raised in Australia, I have to say that I've encountered a lot more ignorance in the US but a lot less racism. I think it's getter better but probably not quickly enough. > So why should Asians be denied the opportunity to prove that that heuristic is imperfect? HAHA only Asians and rich…

> I would hire a Berkeley grad over an ivy grad ANY day because I know how competitive and difficult the STEM programs at Berkeley are.

Well, that's good to hear. I guess I can only hope that a lot of employers think like you do!

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#497

Post by aiisahik »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #493
aiisahik wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? Only East Asians are underpromoted. As and East Asian myself, I believe (1) You should read this article and study: https://www.economist.com/business/2020/02/29/indian-v-chine... (2) there are plenty of Asians in tech. The real under presentation is in sports and entertainment. Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audit…

> Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind? This rather specious argument comes up so often I am going to start calling it the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" (sorry Arvind!). Do you also dismiss the concerns of women not being promoted into management roles by citing the examples of Mary Barra and Marissa Meyer? The US as a whole is very different from Silicon Valley. If the number of people makin…

You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true? Also you suggest that language fluency might be a factor? Read the study [1]. Here's an abstract:

> Across nine studies (n = 11,030) using mixed methods (archival analyses of chief executive officers, field surveys in large US companies, student leader nominations and elections, and experiments), East Asians were less likely than South Asians and whites to attain leadership positions, whereas South Asians were more likely than whites to do so. To understand why the bamboo ceiling exists for East Asians but not South Asians, we examined three categories of mechanisms—prejudice (intergroup), motivation (intrapersonal), and assertiveness (interpersonal)—while controlling for demographics (e.g., birth country, English fluency, education, socioeconomic status). Analyses revealed that East Asians faced less prejudice than South Asians and were equally motivated by work and leadership as South Asians. However, East Asians were lower in assertiveness, which consistently mediated the leadership attainment gap between East Asians and South Asians. These results suggest that East Asians hit the bamboo ceiling because their low assertiveness is incongruent with American norms concerning how leaders should communicate. The bamboo ceiling is not an Asian issue, but an issue of cultural fit.

As for Hollywood - obviously there is plenty of discrimination based on names, accents, and much worse. My point is, if Asians tried as hard getting into Hollywood as they did in getting into Harvard, we would be in a completely different place right now. It's hard and unfair (just like getting into and ivy) but not impossible.

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339227693_Why_East_...

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#498

Post by memexy »

WalterBright wrote: post #460
memexy wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any laws about SAT score requirements for school admission? Because if there aren't then the administrators are not obligated by any rules/laws for objective measures. If that's the case then they are free currently as well. No law means no actual requirement to abide by any rules that reduces freedom in their decision making process.

The SAT scores open the colleges to lawsuits that they are discriminating.

Do you have a list of such suits and success stories that ended in favor of the poor student?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#499

Post by cousin_it »

seibelj wrote: post #212
travisoneill1 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else are you going to keep the Asians out?

You are probably being facetious, but my wife is Vietnamese and her parents were boat people who fled the communists, didn't speak any English and had no money, then her dad got a job washing dishes, learned English at night, got into college, then got into medical school, started a chain of clinics, and retired a millionaire. You would not believe how much they despise current "progressive" politics and speaking wit…

Many Russian/Jewish emigrants (including me) feel similarly. To anyone who grew up under communism, the current thought climate is alarming. It's hard to explain to Western folks.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#500

Post by memexy »

aiisahik wrote: post #488
quadrifoliate wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another Asian who kind of understands your viewpoint, I'm conflicted and unsure about this. Us Asians are in a weird place, because as a statistic we're very successful, but also subject to a fairly wide range of discrimination inside and outside the workplace. We already a harder time breaking into "Good Old Boy" all-white institutions, and I have lost count of the number of casually racist anti-Asian things I ha…

Sorry you encountered racism. That sucks and hope you work with better people in the future. As someone who lives in the US but was raised in Australia, I have to say that I've encountered a lot more ignorance in the US but a lot less racism. I think it's getter better but probably not quickly enough. > So why should Asians be denied the opportunity to prove that that heuristic is imperfect? HAHA only Asians and rich…

> I went to Berkeley for grad school. Now I am a CTO at a company looking at resumes. I would hire a Berkeley grad over an ivy grad ANY day because I know how competitive and difficult the STEM programs at Berkeley are.

How many Berkley grads have you hired and have you tracked their actual job performance?

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