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For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

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Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#211

Post by throwaway711477 »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #47
olivermarks wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's BIPOC?

As a less rhetorical answer, that might help some people if not the OP – as an Asian man in America, I have to worry about people making stupid jokes about my perceived culture, but usually not about getting the police called on me and being shot dead because I'm examining a BB gun that is on sale at Walmart [1] (sometimes, there are exceptions [2]). BIPOC puts this group of people (Black and Indigenous) as a separat…

Doesn't the "POC" term promote the idea that "people of color" have some sort of shared interests? Yet, is that always true?

Person A is an upper-middle class Indian. They study software engineering at university in India. They immigrate to the United States and get a job working as a software engineer in Silicon Valley.

Person B is a working class African-American. Nobody in their family has ever been to university. They work in a service job and live in the suburbs of Atlanta.

What do A and B actually have in common? It seems to me, probably not very much. Their life experiences are very different. A lives a much more privileged life than B. Probably, A actually has more in common with, and more commonality of interests, with their Caucasian American colleagues than with B. Given that, doesn't labelling them both as "POC" obscure more than it reveals?

It also completely ignores the problem that India has with anti-African racism and violence, see e.g – https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/07/24/the-harsh-reality-of-be... – something of which person A may of course be personally entirely innocent, but then again maybe not. If anything, I think the term "POC" is deeply Western-centric (and even US-centric), and presumes that racism and racial conflict is always whites-against-everyone else, when in the wider world it often isn't. (Africans in India, Uighurs and Tibetans in China–and, I think the case of China shows, trying to blame European colonialism for non-Western racism doesn't always work. Or, again, consider how Japan treated Koreans.)

I think the term BIPOC is potentially problematic in that it presents African-American and Native American interests as being more aligned than maybe they actually are. What is the foundational story of US history? The New York Times' 1619 Project presents it as being the Atlantic slave trade. Why that, and not the dispossession of Native Americans? Many African-Americans (and even many Caucasian Americans) seem to want to privilege the African-American narrative over the Native American narrative. Are Native Americans okay with that? I'm sure at least some are not. But lumping them together as "BIPOC" serves to obscure, even erase, these tensions.

(Throwaway because, I hope people can appreciate my comments are an attempt to approach these issues thoughtfully, but in today's climate one has to be very careful what one says.)

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#212

Post by adjkant »

wottamap wrote: post #201
scollet wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like to highlight > Society pretending that there is massive racism when there isn't is itself structural racism. If you believe you cannot succeed due to all this racism, that will be sulf-fulfilling. Blacks that believe in widespread racism will be less likely to go to university and get a job The grandparent is victim-blaming PoC for not having the "Right mentality". The comment itself is what has bee…

I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming all the white people who are scared to death of being seen as racist and who eagerly point out minor behaviours and scream "racism." I'm not blaming blacks for these beliefs, I'm blaming the society that drills them into their heads.

With respect and goodwill (appreciate that you actually seem to be coming to the comments to learn), it's very hard to read your comment in that way when you say things like:

> Society pretending that there is massive racism when there isn't is itself structural racism

I'm not sure where is best to start here because there are so many things that have to go into actually believing that, and so many combinations, but there are tons of resources floating around so I truly do encourage you to seek those out.

A basic starting point list beyond police brutality: public school funding systems, household wealth inequality and lack of reparations + exponential investment growth, medical treatment differences (go look up the guides for black people in the US to get proper medical treatment from a doctor), the prison industrial complex, the criminalization of drugs in the US + its history, crack vs powder cocaine sentencing laws, parole laws

If you prefer movie format: 13th, I Am Not Your Negro, The House I Live In

> I am saying that the level of racism is low

This sums up why your comment go downvoted so far. The social media world is overflowing with resources showing the opposite right now with extensive evidence and research. It has always been there but it has never been more accessible.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#213

Post by 0zymandias »

It seems like people from other ethnicities/countries have done well in Silicon Valley, e.g. India, China, Iran. Notably, CEOs of Google, Microsoft, Uber and others are brown-skinned.

Would they have done even better without the racism? Or what accounts for the difference?

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#214

Post by jessaustin »

Thorentis wrote: post #194
jessaustin wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the human brain using pattern recognition to evaluate a situation and infer information as best it can under the circumstances. That isn't a different thing than "racism". When you don't know, don't assume.

Easy to say that, but the human brain does this - to its advantage - multiple times daily. It's how humans learn and adapt. It is a central part of what makes humans better than other species as adapting to environments and performing well in unfamiliar situations. There is nothing racist about making an unintentional mistake. This whole premise assumes that being a CEO equals competence and a higher level of ability…

If it makes it easier for you to understand, think of it as small-r "racism" rather than capital-R "Racism". It's not equivalent to lynching somebody, but it's still an assumption based on race that harms someone. One doesn't have to harbor ill intent in order to exhibit racist behavior.

One shouldn't think of oneself as the center of this situation. Your dubious appeals to evopysch relate to what's going on (or not) in one's brain, while one's behavior that is observable to others just says "black people are subordinate".

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#215

Post by 1121redblackgo »

nouveaux wrote: post #209
nsporillo wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are the powers and material structures that contribute to the perceived racism in our society? From my limited understanding of this position, it sounds like the goal is a dismantling of police and courts which form the backbone of a civil rule of law society.

If a publicly traded company is not doing well, the CEO gets canned and no one bats an eye. If one department is not doing well, it's very common to just fire a bunch of people or get rid of the department completely. The idea of "dismantling of police" does not mean we do not offer protection. It just means that the current organization "police" is not providing the services it's customers want. Years of "tweaking"…

New way same as the old way presumably. This is a baby with the bathwater situation. It can be fixed no need to scrap it.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#216

Post by js2 »

By my back-of-the-napkin math, white America owes black America about 10 trillion dollars in stolen wealth.

The are roughly 50 million black Americans out of a population of 330M. Americans own roughly $100T in wealth. So black Americans should own about 50 / 330 * 100T or $15T. But they currently only own about $5.5T.

We could start by allocating some our our Federal tax dollars to making black Americans whole.

Sources:

- https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/06/25/six-facts...

- https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining...

- https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/raci...

- https://www.economist.com/united-states/2019/04/06/the-black...

Edit: downvotes but no replies.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#217

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Press2forEN wrote: post #199
lukev wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wait to do anything about systemic racism until it's fully quantified, it will be a long time until we can make any progress. Meanwhile, a central point of the book is one that should be self evident. Talking about racism makes white people[1] uncomfortable. I know this to be true from experience. And we can't make progress as a society until we own that discomfort and are willing to have frank conversations a…

> Talking about racism makes white people uncomfortable. When the basic premise of the argument is that white Americans are born irredeemably flawed[1], you're unlikely to win many white supporters other than the most guilt-ridden. I suppose the tactic is to impart as much guilt as possible. But that doesn't make the argument a good one. [1] https://twitter.com/DisrnNews/status/1266857347567190016

That is not the starting premise of all who oppose racism. It's not even the starting premise of the majority. It's the starting premise of a few loudmouths who unfortunately were given a microphone. They're doing their cause more harm than good by saying stuff like that.

Why are they doing more harm than good? Because, after a claim like that, the conversation is over. There's absolutely no point in talking to someone who makes claims like that. And it makes you less likely to be willing to talk to the next person, either. So the net amount of whites willing to learn and talk about race and racism goes down when people say stuff like this.

(It's also factually untrue, blatantly unfair, and bigoted...)

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#218

Post by golemiprague »

crazygringo wrote: post #50
tomp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's stereotyping, not racism. People make inferences. Like, if there's two folks, one dressed in a suit, the other in baggy clothes with thick glasses, most people (including VCs) would default to the former as the MBA CEO, and the latter as geek CTO Even though it might be the exact opposite! If you make a wrong inference, just accept the correction and move on, no hurt feelings. Similar for old vs. young.

Some inferences are perfectly fine. If someone shows up in your office wearing the outfit of a cleaning company, you're fine in assuming they're a cleaning person. In some circumstances, it's not harmful to assume the person wearing a suit is the CEO, though you might not always be right. The person in the suit might also be head of sales, while baggy clothes is CEO. Generally, it's better not to assume at all unless…

Why? It is just classification by obvious statistics of how many CEOs are black. People do it naturally all the time regarding any subject, just because in this case it is race doesn't make it less reasonable to infer.

Racism is not giving this CEO a fair go because he is black, not assuming logical assumptions which can be corrected.

Re: For black CEOs in Silicon Valley, humiliation is a part of doing business

#220

Post by twybriny »

zasz wrote: post #188
nsporillo wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are the powers and material structures that contribute to the perceived racism in our society? From my limited understanding of this position, it sounds like the goal is a dismantling of police and courts which form the backbone of a civil rule of law society.

Systematic exclusion of black people from social programs, like the GI Bill and Social Security, and redlining, which prevented black Americans from building up wealth through homeownership the way white Americans were. "The Color of Law" is a good book on redlining. To expand on the bit about Social Security, farmworkers were excluded, since farmworkers tend to be not white. It was a nice sneaky way to be racist wit…

One of the things that confuses me quite a bit is the focus on laws that expired or have been abrogated 50-60-70-150 years ago and make it as if everything wrong with contemporary American society is caused directly by such laws and nothing else.

* GI Bill: adopted in 1944, expired in 1956.

* Social Security: adopted in 1935, unclear what the impacts were at the time. Unclear what the impacts are today.

* Redlining: created in 1934, illegal since 1977.

As an immigrant that landed in US post 2000 with $1000 to my name and a tenuous F1 situation, all this sounds like ancient history. Much more stringent appear, in no particular order and not pretending to be exhaustive:

* the whole F1/H1B situation, which depresses the domestic labor market in technical jobs, especially software, but also research at large

* global competition, especially with China

* the over financialization of the economy

* the profits accumulating at the very top since the 2008 Great Recession

* the explosion of real estate market in big cities, way above what we pretend the inflation rate is

* manufacturing decline

* offshoring of entire industries to East Asia

* right now, the covid19 lockdowns which are destroying the service economy, which was supposed to be the future of jobs

* the decimation of small business America due to same covid19 lockdowns.

* specifically for the black community, the lack of academic achievement

* the rise of the gig economy and Amazon warehouse jobs

* the opioid, homelessness and suicide crisis

* the obesity crisis, and the related food deserts

Again, not a young black guy or gal. But if I'd were, there'd be 10 high priority items on my worry list before I'd get to the Civil Rights Era. As a nation we seem to have abandoned the middle and working class of all colors. The public discourse is obsessed with Instagram influencers and race histories half a century old if not older, sometimes much older.

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