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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#451

Post by tartoran »

dominotw wrote: post #300
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

my cousin "volunteered" at her dad's hospital to get into harvard( which she did). Now she is doctor. I know for a fact that she had zero passion to be doctor, hated being in the medical school and hates her work. Hard not be cynical and hate the institutions when witness stuff like this.

This is sad. I had a girlfriend 10 years ago who was studying to become a nurse. She was fantastic at passing tests (rote memorization) and did not care a yota for the science behind it nor had any compassion for people. I had no idea what key answer banks were before she told me how she studies. Shes a nurse now and does it solely for the good money. It’s sad that jobs that require compassion are assailed by motivated test takers. For all she cared she would pursue anything that would make her money and nursing was a low hanging fruit. Now 10 years later the competition in nursing is even more intense and good test takers have a clear advantage.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#452

Post by georgeecollins »

csa wrote: post #354
yasp wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most. I was under the impression that SAT prep doesn't move the needle much. Am I mistaken?

You are greatly mistaken, although it does depend on the quality of the preparation. I have seen scores improve 100-200 points per skill on average for middle range scores, and 50-100 points per skill for higher range scores with quality preparation. Reasons: - familiarity with test format - improved test taking strategies - familiarity with test content - developing the mental stamina to perform at a high level thro…

The SAT goes from 200 - 800. If test prep raises average score by 100 points, there still is some room for the test to show actual knowledge.

The college board says that an SAT is better predictor of success in college than GPA, which based on my experience of American high schools makes sense. I get that wealth probably has a positive correlation to both. But it seems that should matter a little.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#453

Post by Spivak »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #439
Spivak wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure! I tutored the majority of my classmates in Calc and Physics and I did not find one person I believed couldn’t do it. I did find a lot of people who believed they couldn’t do it, weren’t good at math, and wanted to give up though. Some of the main problems: * A lot more people than you would expect have attention issues and just needed someone to give them one-on-one attention. They would get distracted in class…

Your calculus and physics classmates are not a representative sample of people.

Sure, but I don't have any prior belief that my classmates -- kids around my age in my area which was lower-middle to upper-middle class depending on the neighborhood at a middling school -- skewed more proficient in math than the general population.

Of course it's not representative but I find it hard to believe that some no name school happened to be where the math nerds all hung out.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#454

Post by mtgp1000 »

pnw_hazor wrote: post #414
usaar333 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument is that lack of privilege causes poor SAT scores which is preventing certain minorities from realizing their potential, and that this justifies selectively lowering the bar and allocating additional resources. The UC system also removed SAT recently arguing it discriminates. I haven't seen clear evidence though that the SAT discriminates more against poorer students than any other admissions factor. In…

The Regents argued that the tests discriminated w/o evidence. Internal UC studies that looked into how the test scores were applied to admissions determined there was no discrimination.

>The Regents argued that the tests discriminated w/o evidence

That's the entire diversity/inclusion in a nutshell. None of this has been scientifically verified and the basic premise is in contradiction with what we know about humans. But bringing this up anywhere where your name is visible is liable to get you cancelled.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#455

Post by hintymad »

diebeforei485 wrote: post #435
hintymad wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harvard started the institutionalization of "hollistic admission": https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/10/10/getting-in . According to the article, it was not about being fair, it was about limiting the admission of a specific group of people. In general, the more complex a system is, the easier it is for people to game the system, and therefore the easier it is to hide inequality. It's hard to believe that Harva…

Generally speaking, the problem sets might seem harder but the average score is also lower, so it's a wash.

The key is "differentiating". Different students should fall into different score buckets -- a hard problem to solve, to which Chinese teachers dedicate large chunk of their time, for good or for worse.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#456

Post by macspoofing »

thelean12 wrote: post #381
macspoofing wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Essentially nobody graduates from Harvard with a significant amount of debt. That's great! No argument from me. If Harvard structures their tuition in such a way that students aren't graduating with a massive student loan debt, awesome!

You shouldn't have such strong opinions on things when you aren't willing to do even the most basic research.

I didn't make any strong arguments. Look back at see. All I argued was the following:

1) Harvard is not necessary for quality education (true)

2) Harvard is a great school and great a degree (true)

3) If you need to go into debt to pay for Harvard tuition, the Harvard degree isn't worth it, but if you can get it paid for (by whatever means) you should do it! (true)

Which part do you disagree with?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#457

Post by macspoofing »

juletide wrote: post #424
macspoofing wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Essentially nobody graduates from Harvard with a significant amount of debt. That's great! No argument from me. If Harvard structures their tuition in such a way that students aren't graduating with a massive student loan debt, awesome!

Why exactly were you arguing so vociferously when all this information was available just one click away , at the link the other user provided? This kind of comment (being unwilling to do even the most basic research before pontificating on something one doesn't know about) makes HN discussion poorer overall, imho.

>Why exactly were you arguing so vociferously when all this information was available just one click away, at the link the other user provided?

I wasn't arguing. The entire thread I repeated the exact same thing. Namely, that Harvard is a great school and a great degree but if you have to go into debt for it, it's not worth it as there are other quality institutions. I've never wavered from that argument.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#458

Post by amvalo »

whotheffknows wrote: post #440
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

You've obviously never been to a private boarding school where tuition is $40k/year in highschool and in addition to this their parents paid for $5000 classes where the teachers helped them create calculator programs on SAT approved calculators to help solve problems faster and do timed exam grades. I grew up on welfare until middle school years, made straight A's in a poorly ranked public school applied to every boa…

Talking about the Oarsman-regatta thing? That was 2 decades ago...

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#459

Post by WalterBright »

throwadmisons1 wrote: post #159
WalterBright wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. I've heard that claim a lot, but never accompanied by evidence. Nobody I knew prepped for the SAT, and many got into top schools. Unless you count paying attention in math class, and reading adult level books "prepping".

I wasn't sure where to look for hard evidence for the claim, and I would love to see data showing the average SAT scores over time on a per-school basis. But this at least shows how admission rates have been consistently decreasing over (recent) time: https://www.ivywise.com/ivywise-knowledgebase/admission-stat... I think it's reasonable to assume that the increased competitiveness in admissions leads to increasingly…

> how reflective do you think that is of the admissions process today?

The college students I know today didn't prep for it, either, and one was accepted by Stanford and Caltech.

I've seen some claims that the SATs have been "dumbed down" or "re-normed" since the 70s. Certainly, the number of students who apply to elite colleges has increased substantially, which means there will be more with perfect scores.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#460

Post by WalterBright »

memexy wrote: post #384
WalterBright wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SAT is an objective measurement. By dispensing with it, all the other measures are subjective. This means that it leaves the administration free to admit whoever they please, based on any agenda.

Are there any laws about SAT score requirements for school admission? Because if there aren't then the administrators are not obligated by any rules/laws for objective measures. If that's the case then they are free currently as well. No law means no actual requirement to abide by any rules that reduces freedom in their decision making process.

The SAT scores open the colleges to lawsuits that they are discriminating.
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