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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#261

Post by retortio »

Ah, those pesky standardized tests.

Sure they're the hardest part of admissions to game and are a major part of establishing an even intellectual playing field for applicants, but it just looks so bad when we discard a much higher proportion of qualified Asian applicants than qualified applicants from other groups! We were even sued over this issue and the suit is going to appeal!

And we're trying so hard to increase the numbers of admitted applicants from other groups but their standardized testing scores just aren't up to snuff...

I know! Let's just get rid of the tests! Then we can enforce whatever arbitrary (and race based) standards we want without annoying complaints that we're discriminating against qualified applicants.

What's that? By enforcing artificial "race" quotas we're just further dividing people based on race? Nonsense, our humanities department tells us that reifying race and obsessing over it is the best way to achieve a post racial society!

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#262

Post by fortran77 »

travisoneill1 wrote: post #122
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

How else are you going to keep the Asians out?

Exactly. They had similar quotas to keep Jews out several generations ago.

> Certain private universities, most notably Harvard, introduced policies which effectively placed a quota on the number of Jews admitted to the university. According to historian David Oshinsky, on writing about Jonas Salk, "Most of the surrounding medical schools (Cornell, Columbia, Pennsylvania, and Yale) had rigid quotas in place. In 1935 Yale accepted 76 applicants from a pool of 501. About 200 of those applicants were Jewish and only five got in." He notes that Dean Milton Winternitz's instructions were remarkably precise: "Never admit more than five Jews, take only two Italian Catholics, and take no blacks at all."[16] As a result, Oshinsky added, "Jonas Salk and hundreds like him" enrolled in New York University instead.[17] Physicist and Nobel laureate Richard P. Feynman was turned away from Columbia College in the 1930s and went to MIT instead. See also Numerus clausus in the United States.

(Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota )

Today it's "too many asians"

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#263

Post by Pfhreak »

tinyhouse wrote: post #224
pcurve wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have a very average girl in my town who got admitted to grad school at Harvard only because her dad is a law professor at Harvard." I'm not saying Harvard isn't corrupt, but admitting professor's kid isn't really the best indicator of corruption. It's nothing unusual in many schools and they don't hide it.

Not hiding it doesn't mean it's OK. Maybe corrupt is not the right word but it's not that important. Things like this are exactly what people are talking about when they protest against privilege.

Harvard has 2400 professors and admits about 6000 students each year. Each professor might have a child that is at college age, but most won't. And parental admittance isn't a guarantee.

We're talking about a negligible number of students on this path weighed against the employee happiness and retention.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#264

Post by OkayPhysicist »

Invictus0 wrote: post #142
filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

I know most people on this forum are computer scientists but take a minute to think about engineers and scientists that require physical labs to learn. Bio/chem labs, machine shops, wind tunnels, research facilities... not all university degrees can be moved online.

Anyone who claims a university callibre education in any field can achieved by mass online lectures either completely wasted their time in university, or never attended in the first place.

The main purpose, and primary advantage, of a university is being a place of learning. That means you are embedded in a community that is focused around the pursuit of knowledge.

At the very least, you are embedded in a community of peers, some studying the same subject as you and invaluable as a resource to bounce ideas around with, and studying other subjects, giving you exposure to ideas you didn't even know to look up.

And that's before you even get to the fact that you get access to professors and other faculty who are extremely knowledgeable in their respective fields. Unless you are from an extremely academic background, it is highly unlikely your typical social circle includes several PhDs. But all your professors have one.

And compounding on that, you're in an environment designed to be conducive to learning. No where else will you find more resources and cultural forces aimed towards learning. Even those wild college parties are still filled with people who are engaged in academic pursuit at least half the week.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#265

Post by user982 »

travisoneill1 wrote: post #238
seibelj wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are probably being facetious, but my wife is Vietnamese and her parents were boat people who fled the communists, didn't speak any English and had no money, then her dad got a job washing dishes, learned English at night, got into college, then got into medical school, started a chain of clinics, and retired a millionaire. You would not believe how much they despise current "progressive" politics and speaking wit…

Why wouldn't they feel that way? As bad as Trump may be, he isn't trying to keep their kids from following the same successful path.

The same successful path that begins with the US welcoming non-white, non-English-speaking refugees from countries they've bombed? Trump is not actively on the record against all of that?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#266

Post by ylem »

0d9eooo wrote: post #232
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

So I generally agree with you, and have agreed with the position you're outlining, but my thoughts about this have changed over time, having been on graduate admissions committees and doing research on related topics. The admissions committees I've been on have had these discussions about dropping standardized tests; so far they weren't but this sort of trend might put pressure to do so. The thing about this, loosely…

Thanks for the excellent response! I have looked at this in the context of physics GREs and it doesn't seem to be terribly predictive--but I think that graduate admissions probably has fewer candidates than undergraduate admissions. So, is there time/resources for more holistic admission at the undergraduate level (at least for the first pass)?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#267

Post by malandrew »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #168
akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

SAT scores are also pretty useless, when Harvard has enough applications with perfect scores to fill their class multiple times.

But now they aren't going to only have applications with perfect scores. They are going to have applications with people that would have had perfect scores and a lot of people that would not have had perfect scores. For this new pool of applicants, that score would be meaningful.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#268

Post by kory »

retortio wrote: post #261

Ah, those pesky standardized tests. Sure they're the hardest part of admissions to game and are a major part of establishing an even intellectual playing field for applicants, but it just looks so bad when we discard a much higher proportion of qualified Asian applicants than qualified applicants from other groups! We were even sued over this issue and the suit is going to appeal! And we're trying so hard to increase…

The problem is that standardized tests worsen the gap between the privileged and not. Test performance correlates strongly with how much prep you receive. Wealthy, white & asian students have the advantage there.

Not to mention that I am not convinced these tests strongly correlate with one’s ability to successfully complete an undergrad degree.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#269

Post by wait_a_minute »

iagovar wrote: post #243
mrfredward wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very cynical answer to what's the logic here: objective measures get in the way of many non-academic college admission goals, so colleges want to do away with them. One of those goals is racial diversity, and that's the only one colleges openly talk about because it's the only one that can positively impact society. Other goals include raising more money by admitting the children of major donors, improving the pres…

That sounds bad if you're a white non-rich kid.

Who cares about those? Definitely not the new American left.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#270

Post by msrmthehomeless »

aiisahik wrote: post #242

As an Asian who went to an Ivy, I welcome this change. Yes, it will mask a policy of keeping the proportion of Asians lower than a race neutral policy. Yes, it's racially discriminatory. Yes, it's somewhat unfair to Asians who are trying to get in. But no, being fair isn't the point of these schools. Nor is having the most academically excellent student population. If you want that, go to Berkeley or CalTech. The poi…

> The point is to provide an exclusive and desirable brand name

Brand names are fundamentally based on merit, not by implementing some initiative that any school can do in a year. Harvard is Harvard and not some no-name college because of adherence of its incredibly selective hiring process over the years

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