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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#231
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most puzzling aspect. Not sure how anyone could claim with a straight face Harvard unfairly discriminates against Asian applicants. There's definitely something else going on here.

Statistically, Asians have higher than average SAT, ACT scores, this is not contested. In 1996 California passed prop 209 which banned affirmative action on the state level. All top UC schools have become majority asian despite California being less than 20% asian. Now considering Harvard, there was a federal case brought against it since asians scoring higher marks than peers were being rejected. Harvard's defense w…

How was personality scored? Was this specified?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#232
post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

So I generally agree with you, and have agreed with the position you're outlining, but my thoughts about this have changed over time, having been on graduate admissions committees and doing research on related topics. The admissions committees I've been on have had these discussions about dropping standardized tests; so far they weren't but this sort of trend might put pressure to do so.

The thing about this, loosely speaking, is that there's bias and variance. The issue with tests is that there's huge variance in them. Out of your life, how much time is spent actually taking it? With the GRE or SAT you're talking a few hours at most; the same thing could be said of most standardized tests.

The problem with this is that now you don't just have bias, you have this huge error/noise/variance associated with the test score. Maybe you don't take tests as well as the person sitting next to you. Maybe there was something weird the day and time you took the test, but it wasn't enough to declare the test invalid because of financial incentives. Maybe it makes assumptions, like that everyone taking the test comes from a common educational background, that are irrelevant to the actual thing the test is measuring. Etc etc. So yes, it predicts things, but if you look at studies, it does so relatively weakly in the grand scheme of things, and even more weakly with reference to even longer-term variables past first-year GPA.

The issue is that yes, the SAT, GRE etc is providing some information. I agree that ideally it shouldn't be thrown away. But today you have this opposite extreme in many cases where it's taken very much at face value, as an error-free quantity, or only minimally so. It's difficult to do anything with. Let's say you have someone apply. They're Asian, or white, or black, or whatever. Their test score is relatively low, but they have incredible background, GPA, etc. How do you interpret that individual test score in that context? The appropriate thing to do is to treat it as one bit of information, so that if everything were uncompetitive, it would support that, and if everything were competitive, it would support that, but in the scenario described it's kind of off. If you ignore it though, do you really need the test? If you blindly let the test overrule other things, is that appropriate?

Tests I think have become a kind of liability, in that they are useful, but their use is superceded by their misuse. There's always this one person or group who argues that the test score should supercede other bits of information because it's "more objective" ignoring all of its noise. It's almost like information that becomes dangerous because how it's leveraged by admissions committees, politicians, etc. in a way that far exceeds its validity. It's like having a tool that people can't use correctly on average -- if some product were on the market that led to lots of problems because people were misusing it, you might say the tool isn't the problem, people are, but if people were misusing it that much, you might still take it off the market because that's still critical.

I feel like there's a lot of this -- it's not just tests -- where a lot about a person gets reduced to a single number, or a couple of numbers, that are treated as fixed properties of that person, which is not true. A number may be more objective, but if its meaning is hazy enough, the objectivity doesn't matter.

This all may be moot, because I suspect a lot of this is just due to coronavirus-specific issues and tests will get readopted later. But I could be wrong.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acc…

> Not wealthy donors Harvard's admission rate is 30% for "legacies" which make up one in six of their students, and even higher for donors. These are the kids who get in while being thick as a brick. The injustice is not primarily the black kid with 1400 SAT getting in over the east Asian kid with 1580 -- the injustice is the hundreds of CEOs/senators' kids being assured admission even being dumber than a sack of ham…

I would expect legacies to have a higher admission rate. They are a subpopulation coming from homes with intelligent parents, likely grew up in intellectually stimulating environments, and were probably focused on the Ivy League before many of their peers had even heard that term.

There is definitely some application boost legacies get simply by virtue of being a legacy, but their applications are probably quite strong in general. So it's unlikely that dropping the SAT was meant to cater to them.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#234
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very cynical answer to what's the logic here: objective measures get in the way of many non-academic college admission goals, so colleges want to do away with them. One of those goals is racial diversity, and that's the only one colleges openly talk about because it's the only one that can positively impact society. Other goals include raising more money by admitting the children of major donors, improving the pres…

I think there’s a silver lining to all of this behavior in that it demonstrates that nothing really matters when it comes to determining if you’ll be successful in college. Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most. You could replace the SAT and ACT with obscure movie trivia and you’d see roughly the same distribution of scores and it would have the same predict…

>Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most.

Aren't colleges looking for people who will study the most? Who have the motivation and the ability for the motivation to translate into results?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#235
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very cynical answer to what's the logic here: objective measures get in the way of many non-academic college admission goals, so colleges want to do away with them. One of those goals is racial diversity, and that's the only one colleges openly talk about because it's the only one that can positively impact society. Other goals include raising more money by admitting the children of major donors, improving the pres…

I think there’s a silver lining to all of this behavior in that it demonstrates that nothing really matters when it comes to determining if you’ll be successful in college. Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most. You could replace the SAT and ACT with obscure movie trivia and you’d see roughly the same distribution of scores and it would have the same predict…

> Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most.

Dunno about you, but even if this is true, something that shows you were highly motivated and took time to do something seems very valuable if your goal is to produce people what produce.

In most areas of study, being motivated and investing time are key contributors to success. They aren't the only one. Intelligence, diversity of thought and resources matter too, but they certainly aren't negligible or dismissible.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American culture also devalues community college in this way. The way we break this is by changing our hiring decisions. If you have a Harvard grad (or other private university grad) in front of you, consider if they really are the right candidate. Consider recruiting from local community and public colleges, including public non-traditional colleges. Build a rapport with the job placement offices at these schools. I…

Is there any difference in hiring between someone who attended four years at a college vs transferred in after two years at community college? (At UC Berkeley, about a third of graduates are transfers and at least while I was a student there I didn't get any perception they were less capable)

I expect any differences to manifest in the student's life over the subsequent years. Many people build a significant chunk of their social network in those first two years of undergraduate college

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#237

The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use. It was just one of those things everyone did because everyone did it. With more opting out that momentum goes away and increasingly now people are asking “so why did we use this test again?” Likely won’t be long until the SAT just disappears entirely and…

>The SAT has always generally been a test showing how well you prepared for the SAT. For top schools all viable candidates had very good scores so it wasn’t much use.

There are many people who have high GPA's but are not intelligent enough to do well on the SATs. Removing this bar will allow those people through.

Not necessarily a bad thing but a thing nonetheless.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else are you going to keep the Asians out?

You are probably being facetious, but my wife is Vietnamese and her parents were boat people who fled the communists, didn't speak any English and had no money, then her dad got a job washing dishes, learned English at night, got into college, then got into medical school, started a chain of clinics, and retired a millionaire. You would not believe how much they despise current "progressive" politics and speaking wit…

Why wouldn't they feel that way? As bad as Trump may be, he isn't trying to keep their kids from following the same successful path.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should just roll some kind of standardized test into your Junior year. Instead of it being this external expensive thing, everyone who wants to go to college can just take a half year preparation course in your Junior year and take the test at the end. We don't need this to be external. We already do a lot of standardized tests to measure student performance. This fixes the GPA problem between schools and…

Most high school students take the SAT/ACT in their junior year already. Many only take the test that once. Many high schools have test-taking built into the curriculum for the first half of that year of school. Some states have replaced their standardized testing with the SAT/ACT.

What states are those? No schools that I know of locally have SAT prep as a school course or use the SAT as their standardized tests. It is good that some schools are already moving this way. I think it makes sense to have just one standardized test that can be used for admission and also tracking progress of schools and states.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#240
post #221
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Test scores don’t prove much except who had the resources, time, and motivation to study the most. I was under the impression that SAT prep doesn't move the needle much. Am I mistaken?

Cramming for the test right at the end with SAT prep will add a few points but won’t do anything dramatic. But if you get put in the “honors” track of a lot of high schools where the name of the game is to teach material informed by the SAT, ACT, AP, and IB teats then you almost can’t help but do well since you’ve been cramming for 4 years.

> since you’ve been cramming for 4 years.

You could say the same for pretty much every educated person who has done an undergraduate or postgraduate degree. Seems like a lot of human progress has been made as the result of people that have been "cramming for 4 years"

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