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Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

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Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#121

Post by KenoFischer »

FisForFlight wrote: post #106
filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

A friend of mine goes to Harvard. He says once you get into Harvard... it's smooth sailing from there.

It can be if you want it to. At Harvard, there's very few requirements on what courses constitute a degree, so if you want to get a degree by just taking the easiest classes possible, you can definitely do that. Of course, most students don't do that since that's not why they went there. I do think professors try to give higher grade averages for the harder classes to avoid punishing students for challenging themselves, but I don't really have a problem with that (if you chose those classes you're probably not in it for the grades anyway). Also, at least I'm the sciences, a good fraction of students start taking classes at the graduate level either freshman or sophomore year, since they'll have completed a good chunk of the undergrad curriculum in high school.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#122

Post by travisoneill1 »

akyu wrote: post #115

I have a hard time understanding the logic here. GPAs are essentially useless, so what else do we have to go off of? "Hollistic admissions" processes seem to be even more skewed towards rich kids, as they have far greater opportunities outside of the class room to pad their resumes in exactly the way that colleges look for. This seems entirely backwards to me. If there is a systemic bias in test scores, it is still b…

How else are you going to keep the Asians out?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#123

Post by chrxr »

filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

If the learning experience is simplified to listening to a lecture, either live or recorded, and all grading is done algorithmically, then yes, there is no scaling limitation. This would be considered a very poor learning experience though. Even in the School of Engineering at Harvard, even for the CS classes, very few use autograding. Students expect individual feedback on their work. They expect the ability to personally interact with teaching staff. They expect group work, labs, office hours, reading groups, and some level of supervision over these activities.

I work at Harvard, and I can tell you there is a real push to create a quality experience in remote learning, and a lot of resources are being directed towards this. It is not just the same classes via Zoom. Of course these enhanced learning environments could be replicated on campus as well, there's nothing particularly special about the remote learning environment.

But as you suggest, it is the residential experience that most folks are paying for. Harvard considers the residential experience as one of their primary value propositions. That is why Harvard and other schools are working very hard to get students back to campus. It's a difficult balancing act between this and maintaining the health of the campus. A major outbreak amongst undergrads would be a serious blow to everybody involved, so health is always going to come first.

Also worth noting that 20% of Harvard students pay 0 tuition, and more than 50% get needs-based scholarships. https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid. So if you're smart enough, and/or fit into the financial aid brackets, why not go to Harvard? What's the risk there?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#124

Post by ericmay »

mtgp1000 wrote: post #45
wespiser_2018 wrote: post #38

This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acco…

>This makes sense: Harvard has a huge issue with discrimination against Asian Americans, who are not represented according to their ACT/SAT score distribution. If Harvard could waive away these scores, they can continue their admissions policy that favor students from wealthy families who pay full price, and are likely to be institutional givers after graduation by focusing on admission factors that are much less acc…

I'm not sure about this. I'm not a fan of the ACT/SAT (I've never taken them and somehow wound up with a master's degree) - but what I worry about them is that it removes one somewhat objective measure that you could point to in scoring. When you remove that, well, what do you look at? I think that's where we see students who come from well-off families have an even larger advantage because they can be captain of the sports team, the debate team, volunteer at the hospital, etc. Whereas if you are poor and smart - you work a second job to support your family, or you spend as much time not at home as possible.

Good luck convincing an admissions officer that working a second job is more "valuable" in the process than doing all these other things when they want to maintain the "image" of the university.

Without an ACT/SAT you'll also probably get more applicants hoping to hit the lottery from an admissions officer too.

I will say that obviously wealthy parents can pay for a tutor for the ACT/SAT, but a poor kid can get a practice book for $20 and at least have a shot.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#125

Post by omarhaneef »

beaner wrote: post #36
filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

I don't get it, aren't most colleges non-profits? Why do they seek such high tuition fees if they're not profiting? Or are they, somehow?

Perhaps you've heard the old quip about colleges with large endowments: a college is hedge fund with a small teaching arm attached to get the non-profit designation.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#126

Post by dmd »

FisForFlight wrote: post #106
filereaper wrote: post #31

I highly recommend watching the video by Scott Galloway on The College Implosion. [1] "Colleges have become luxury brands and are adopting a strategy of artificial scarcity to create irrational margins" There's a large movement right now where many are saying the large tuition fees for Zoom lectures aren't worth it. Colleges sell themselves for the experience and are a luxury lifestyle brand almost, but with covid th…

A friend of mine goes to Harvard. He says once you get into Harvard... it's smooth sailing from there.

And then there's MIT.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#128

Post by geomark »

contemporary343 wrote: post #28

I'm a Canadian who went to an ivy for undergrad, and have always found the American attachment to the SAT a bit puzzling. I'm also puzzled at the widespread view that by removing the SAT some grave injustice or lowering in standards is inevitable. Canadian universities manage to admit students mostly just based on high school grades just fine. (Yes, there are provincial final exams but those scores often are not avai…

So Canadian universties don't admit homeschoolers since there are no high school grades?

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#129

Post by samfisher83 »

contemporary343 wrote: post #28

I'm a Canadian who went to an ivy for undergrad, and have always found the American attachment to the SAT a bit puzzling. I'm also puzzled at the widespread view that by removing the SAT some grave injustice or lowering in standards is inevitable. Canadian universities manage to admit students mostly just based on high school grades just fine. (Yes, there are provincial final exams but those scores often are not avai…

What do you do when a large chunk of the people that apply have a 4.0? How do you determine which person who got a 4.0 gets into your school. I know quite a few people who had a 4.0 + Close to perfect sat score + pretty good extra curricular not get in. If you are Indian getting into an ivy league school is largely luck. Does the admissions officer reading you essay like what you wrote. Does one of your extra circulars stand out.

Re: Harvard University Won’t Require SAT, ACT for Admissions Next Year

#130

Post by officemonkey »

bash-j wrote: post #118
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard the same thing about universities in Japan. High school in Japan is so much pressure that some students crack under it, but then once you get to university it is supposedly easily to just slack off for your entire degree program.

Do employers care about what grades you got in university?

No one has ever hired me based on my college grades. The first job I had checked to see I graduated from college. Every other job has been based on experience and my record of performance.
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