After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract • Hacker News Board

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#781

Post by vertex-four » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 7:42 AM UTC

rdgthree wrote: post #608

vertex-four wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, packing your things and running is basically impossible for most people anywhere close to that situation because borders are enforced and countries will find any excuse possible to avoid granting refugee status. The "you could've slept in a forest, never interacted with anyone, and foraged for plants for survival" kind of excuse that LGBT folks fleeing from countries where they're likely to get murdere…

I think your parent comment is neither here nor there on actually leaving, but rather just using hyperbole to demonstrate that this isn't a problem easily fixed with laws. A food establishment forced to serve you might serve you food that's gone bad, a mechanic might not fully tighten the nuts on your brake pads, or any other variety of horrible things that people could do to harm you while leaving room for plausible…

> If every restaurant is discriminating, the singular restuarant that serves the less wealthy group would have plenty of business, simply due to the lack of competition.

Depends on how spread out the population is - black folk, maybe (but I don't have a simulation on me to work it out for sure and in what situations that theory might collapse), the subset of trans folk who're still working out how to blend in and not be seen as such in a rural area, not so much.

There's entire countries where some products are just not available commercially due to the lower income meaning nobody wants to put in the effort to work out how to provide them cost-effectively.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#782

Post by LunaSea » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 7:46 AM UTC

qtplatypus wrote: post #766

prepend wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, I think it’s completely inappropriate to equate ICE with 30s nazi germany state. I think its appropriate to refuse to work with nazi germany, apartheid south africa, khmer rouge, etc. But I don’t think ICE is anywhere near those regimes. If GitHub staff equate them, then I question the logic of any organization that makes those comparisons. Mainly because it they aren’t operating rationally then perhaps next…

Different people have different thresholds for “Abusive behaviour that is sufficient to break ties”. This is a subjective question of morals. You can’t say “If this organisation has X units of badness”.

Right, which also means that not everyone at GitHub agrees with not working on ICE related projects.

I'm even betting that it is a small vocal minority that is against it.

So, how should GitHub proceed in your opinion?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#783

Post by belorn » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 8:14 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #372

brabel wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am strongly against a private business being able to refuse service to a person/organization on political grounds, even when the "victim" may seem to be performing evil actions, as long as it is not breaking any laws. One should not discriminate on the basis of race, political orientation, gender, origin or religion. Refusing service is clearly a form of discrimination. When you aim that towards your own Government…

>One should not discriminate on the basis of race, political orientation, gender, origin or religion. Refusing service is clearly a form of discrimination It looks like you're trying to imply that discriminating based on political orientation is as bad as as discriminating based on race, gender, origin or religion, but that's wrong. At least when it comes to the law, political orientation isn't a protected class. Rac…

When it comes to US law, under the qualification of "most states", then political orientation is not protected. Some states however do protect it in some circumstances just like any other discrimination. Discrimination laws in the US is a mix between federal and state law.

In the EU under human rights, discriminating based on political orientation is just as bad as discriminating based on race, gender, origin or religion. Religion and political beliefs are equivalent under the rule of law.

The UN also recognize discriminating based on political orientation under their human right declaration: "Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status"

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#784

Post by thu2111 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 8:43 AM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #232

brabel wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am strongly against a private business being able to refuse service to a person/organization on political grounds, even when the "victim" may seem to be performing evil actions, as long as it is not breaking any laws. One should not discriminate on the basis of race, political orientation, gender, origin or religion. Refusing service is clearly a form of discrimination. When you aim that towards your own Government…

ICE is not a person. ICE does not have a "race, political orientation, gender, origin or religion." It is a social construct and a very recent one at that. Denying service to ICE the organization isn't even remotely comparable to denying service to actual human beings.

Religion isn't a person either. That's a social construct. And I keep reading people claiming gender is a social construct too, so I guess discriminating against people on those grounds is fine then.

Denying service to ICE the organization isn't even remotely comparable to denying service to actual human beings.

Is ICE staffed entirely by robots? How is it not denying service to actual human beings?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#785

Post by qbaqbaqba » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 8:45 AM UTC

Put your money where your mouth is.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#786

Post by 0-O-0 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #644

0-O-0 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good. If ending contract with an agency that runs concentration camp has any meaningful impact on said agency, the only thing you achieve is making their service a bit worse and life of people in their custody a bit miserable. That's the opposite of good, you're just hurting people you supposedly care about.

Your logic system states that doing business with evil is good. No, I don't think that works.

My logic system consider both direct and indirect consequences of my actions, yours, apparently, does not.

But hey, if you optimise for immediate feeling of righteousness and moments of back-patting, there is no reason to overcomplicate things.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#787

Post by 0-O-0 » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 9:54 AM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #506

0-O-0 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what happens when everyone refuses you EVERY single service If I'll ever find my self in a situation like this - I'll pack my things and run. I'm not going to be happy in a place like this even if government will force those people to tolerate me. > if a majority of businesses gradually decide to be racist and refuse all services just because they can That means anyone entrepreneurial enough will have access to an…

Unfortunately, packing your things and running is basically impossible for most people anywhere close to that situation because borders are enforced and countries will find any excuse possible to avoid granting refugee status. The "you could've slept in a forest, never interacted with anyone, and foraged for plants for survival" kind of excuse that LGBT folks fleeing from countries where they're likely to get murdere…

> running is basically impossible for most people anywhere close to that situation

AFAIK there is no strict control on US state borders, citizens are allowed to move freely. In many cases running away is as easy as purchasing Greyhound bus ticket. It's great that you deeply care about prosecution of LGBT people in places like Middle East, but it's not really relevant to a discussion of anti discrimination laws in US.

> isn't worth much

You don't have to be big to be successful. This scenario means that you have very low barrier to enter this market and will have to spend close to nothing on advertising. But what's more important - this scenario is unrealistic. If you live in a country where it's possible to pass anti-discrimination laws - you don't need those laws, since majority of your country already finds discrimination unacceptable.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#788

Post by vertex-four » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

0-O-0 wrote: post #787

vertex-four wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, packing your things and running is basically impossible for most people anywhere close to that situation because borders are enforced and countries will find any excuse possible to avoid granting refugee status. The "you could've slept in a forest, never interacted with anyone, and foraged for plants for survival" kind of excuse that LGBT folks fleeing from countries where they're likely to get murdere…

> running is basically impossible for most people anywhere close to that situation AFAIK there is no strict control on US state borders, citizens are allowed to move freely. In many cases running away is as easy as purchasing Greyhound bus ticket. It's great that you deeply care about prosecution of LGBT people in places like Middle East, but it's not really relevant to a discussion of anti discrimination laws in US.…

US states share significant amounts of culture, including attitudes towards minority groups, and moving between them doesn't make as much difference as you'd expect if they did not.

The majority of a country finding discrimination unacceptable isn't necessary to pass anti-discrimination laws - just that most people don't care whether someone gets discriminated against or not. If you don't care (or need the job to survive yourself), you'll do whatever your boss tells you to do, and you're hardly going to boycott a store for discriminating against someone else, which means a subset of the population has disproportionate impact.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#789

Post by masonic » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 10:40 AM UTC

gerbal wrote: post #484

google234123 wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If ICE becomes a nazis then America will have also have become the same. I don't think it's fair or makes sense to single them out. Anyway, dealing with illegal immigration has popular support.

> dealing with illegal immigration has popular support. You presume that "dealing with illegal immigration has popular support" is the same as "the public broadly supports arbitrary cruelty to illegal immigrants". The US population (~80%) appears to think "dealing with illegal immigration" should mean "provide a path to citizenship" [1] 1. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1660/immigration.aspx > I don't think it's fair o…

  (~80%) appears to think "dealing with illegal immigration" should mean "provide a path to citizenship" [1]

You left out "... after fulfilling certain requirements"

Meanwhile, that exact same poll had 75% of respondents favoring "Hiring significantly more border patrol agents."

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#790

Post by prepend » Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 11:21 AM UTC

st1ck wrote: post #772

prepend wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, I think it’s completely inappropriate to equate ICE with 30s nazi germany state. I think its appropriate to refuse to work with nazi germany, apartheid south africa, khmer rouge, etc. But I don’t think ICE is anywhere near those regimes. If GitHub staff equate them, then I question the logic of any organization that makes those comparisons. Mainly because it they aren’t operating rationally then perhaps next…

GP isn't literally equating ICE with Nazis. But it's pretty realistic to expect (extrapolating from current trends) that if left unchecked, ICE will get more and more abusive, eventually matching Nazi level.

That is an interesting assumption. Given how few Nazis there are and how plentiful the non-Nazis orgs are that do something the level of ICE, I don’t think there’s an “entropy drift” towards becoming Nazis.

Or perhaps the checks are very common and don’t usually result in public letters and whatnot.

ICE hasn’t even been accelerating in their harm to people. If anything they’ve plateaued or declined. I’m not sure how to best measure fascism in ICE, but long term internment, death, and mistreatment is probably a start. The death rate has dropped, despite many more detentions [0]. I tried to figure out some metric around number detained, but I think that may also be influenced by number of crossings and not straightforward to risk of becoming Nazi Germany.

How do you think we can better measure this risk within ICE?

[0] https://www.cato.org/blog/8-people-died-immigration-detentio...