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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

latimes.com

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#451

Post by [deleted] »

gerbal wrote: post #445
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm fine with the questions on immigration. It's a political issue that has been unaddressed for decades, and needs to be faced soon. I'm not fine with hyperbole. It causes unnecessary arguments and deadens people to extreme viewpoints. Reality is bad enough to cause political change as long as attention is brought to it.

How is "ICE is running concentration camps" hyperbole if all parts of the sentence are literally true? If ICE could be trusted to care for those in its care [1] or respect the legal rights of immigrants [2] then, maybe it would be unfair. How many children need to die in custody before "concentration camp" stops being hyperbolic? [1] https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2019/12/19/ice... [2] https://www.lati…

[deleted]

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#452

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

phoe-krk wrote: post #212
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I may not totally agree with you on the politics, I do totally agree that I have a large discount for words made by corporations when it is the popular thing to do and when there are few negative consequences of them doing it . Yes, words of support matter, and I see nothing wrong with wanting to rename blacklist->blocklist and whitelist->allowlist, but I also can't help but roll my eyes a little when I see a L…

> there is a lot of good research about how housing segregation is one of the largest continuing drivers in systemic racism in the US Could you link some of it? I'm alien to this particular issue.

Here is a good jumping off point: https://www.facebook.com/NPR/videos/701877010588148/

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#453

Post by umvi »

karpierz wrote: post #440
umvi wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your examples are extremely contrived. > Suppose that they'd already been on trial for it, found guilty and served their time Ok, so I'm supposing a convicted felon is trying to purchase a gun, which is illegal under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(1). > Do you sell them the gun, knowing that they intend to use it for violence? No, I do not sell them the gun, because it would be illegal to do so. === Bottom line, I believe in "in…

Again, you're avoiding the question; it's a moral question, not a legal one. Yes, it's illegal. But that doesn't mean it's unethical. I'm asking if it's unethical to sell someone a gun if you're convinced they're going to do something you believe to be unethical with it. I would say yes. I'm not sure if you would say, "no, it doesn't matter if I know they're going to kill children with it", "maybe, if I only think th…

If they are legally allowed to buy it, I would sell it to them but put a waiting period on it ("yep, you own it now. You can pick it up in 5 days"). During the waiting period, if I thought they were going to use it to commit a heinous crime, I would contact the FBI and provide them with all of the buyer's details.

I don't like this contrived example though, and I suspect you've only set it up so that if/when I say "nope, I won't sell the gun to that person" you'll then say "in this case the gun is GitHub and the felon trying to buy it is ICE" which I do not think is an apt analogy at all.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#454

Post by moolcool »

newman8r wrote: post #413
ChristianBundy wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the message it would send to current and future customers What exactly is that message? Maybe: "If you make your money by separating families, putting kids in cages, and deporting asylum-seekers to places where they're in danger, then we don't want your money." Do you see anything wrong with that message?

The message I was implying was that github would no longer be seen as a viable option for government agencies.

Would that be such a problem? I use GitHub every day, but if they burn a bridge with the federal government it's no skin off my back.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#455

Post by 0-O-0 »

dsr_ wrote: post #66

Corporations are people. If they don't act ethically, we can't expect people to act ethically. Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good. Better, though, is to not accept any contracts with any government that runs concentration camps. Small steps are good. Big steps are better. PS: great fear from all paying customers that run concentration camps that an internet mob could separate them…

> Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good.

If ending contract with an agency that runs concentration camp has any meaningful impact on said agency, the only thing you achieve is making their service a bit worse and life of people in their custody a bit miserable.

That's the opposite of good, you're just hurting people you supposedly care about.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#456

Post by o10449366 »

dnissley wrote: post #437
quadrifoliate wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. They have a problem with their employer, and are being heard in the court of public opinion. Why is that "a bummer"? I don't have a particular opinion on whether or not what they are doing is an effective way to accomplish their aims. But workers speaking out for any reason, ranging from unethical wage suppressio…

> They have a problem with their employer, and are being heard in the court of public opinion. Why is that "a bummer"? The court of public opinion doesn't have a good track record, for one. It's decisions are often based on fashion more than any kind of ethical principles. A classic exploration of this phenomenon is contained in the novel The Bonfire of the Vanities by Tom Wolfe.

I haven't read that book. Can you provide some examples supporting the claim that the "court of public opinion" doesn't have a good track record?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#457

Post by dnautics »

code_sloth wrote: post #443
dnautics wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have. And you know what, civil rights laws did jack all to protect me. I'm much happier knowing that the people that operate that business were racist jerks (instead of, say, them being forced to serve me and spit in my food, which would be a health concern), and I have dissuaded probably on the order of a hundred people from going to that place, and that was in the era before social media.

> I have. And you know what, civil rights laws did jack all to protect me. I'm not you, and I can't imagine what your situation is, but I'll bet whatever precious little civil rights laws that are enforced wherever you are has probably has helped you more than you know. Some people thought pandemic response teams are a waste of money, until a pandemic happened, then they realized perhaps there wasn't a pandemic previ…

> I'm not you, and I can't imagine what your situation is

That's right. You don't know.

> I'll bet whatever precious little civil rights laws that are enforced wherever you are has probably has helped you more than you know.

So how can you even make that statement?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#458

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

google234123 wrote: post #350
abtinf wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merriam-Webster definition of concentration camp: “a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners” Japanese internment camps from WW2 easi…

I'm pretty sure that's it's criminal in every country on earth to violate the immigration laws of that country

No. And it almost isn't in the US:

"Being illegally present in the U.S. has always been a civil, not criminal, violation of the INA[Immigration and Naturalization Act]"

"Criminal violations of the INA, on the other hand, include felonies and misdemeanors and are prosecuted in federal district courts. These types of violations include the bringing in and harboring of certain undocumented aliens, aliens (INA §275), ..."

As can already be deduced from the above, illegal entry is a misdemeanor. Only the bringing in, harbouring, and certain specific aggravation conditions raise it to a felony.

(From https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33351.pdf)

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#459

Post by umvi »

shay_ker wrote: post #325

Just food for thought: If Github backed out, wouldn't someone else fill their spot by using Gitlab? And if so, isn't that transition cost paid for by tax payers? I'm mostly wondering what's the material impact of Github backing out, outside of optics.

Yeah, but then GitLab will be pressured to back out, and then BitBucket will be too, then ICE will use Gitea, but then the pressure will come back to GitHub to boot Gitea off their platform unless they write ICE out of the license, etc. it's a never ending mess that will harm the software development community.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#460

Post by astine »

ckocagil wrote: post #196
jjice wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a direct reply to your comment, but more of an adjacent one. > Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. You cannot choose to “avoid” them; But I do choose to avoid them in my personal life. A private company can do whatever the hell they want, whether I approve or not, it's their right. I also believe it is my right to not care about politics and continue moving forward with my own life.…

You can ignore politics, but politics will not ignore you. What you're doing is burying your head in the sand, not avoiding.

A problem with this line of reasoning is that there is a potentially infinite number of issues, all of which could affect you or someone vulnerable. However, people have issues that are more immediate to them and which they have a more direct responsibility over. For example, If I don't personally champion solutions to police brutality, someone else might, but if I don't do my job and earn a living, there isn't really anyone else who really can or should be expected to pick up the slack.What's more, peple need the mental space to think about the issues that they are going to take a stand on which means that it takes time and energy to address different issues and they need to prioritize. This is one reason why it's reasonable to restrict political discourcse to certain spheres, because doing so is necessary if we are to take into account basic human limitations.
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