Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

761–770 of 841 posts

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#761

Post by mikedilger »

tssva wrote: post #194
rattray wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is true – businesses are legally allowed to refuse service to anyone (apart from protected classes like race or political affiliation, but that probably does not apply here). It's an important right, and probably many businesses would be more profitable and happy if they exercised that right more often. It's still politically dangerous, and would earn a company a lot of enemies and mistrust (as well as some alli…

In the US at least political affiliation is not usually a protected class.

Except in Washington D.C.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#762

Post by monocasa »

dnautics wrote: post #543
monocasa wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's right. You don't know. Why don't you enlighten us instead of playing coy?

What, do you want specific details? In the mid 80s, My parents took me to a diner, specifically BOB AND EDITH's on columbia pike, in Arlington VA. During the 80s, Asian Americans were very rare in the Washington DC area, and moreover, there was a trade war going on between the US and Japan. It was fashionable at the time for short fiction to feature dystopian US futures where the active currency was the Yen. We arriv…

So summarizing, a waiter was terrible 30+ years ago, and your dad ran into tons of politics in the VA, and you didn't get into the school you think you should have in your otherwise extremely privileged upper middle class life that had you interacting with high level government officials as a child, so protected classes were a mistake?

Like black people had to consult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Motorist_Green_Book when driving cross country to not be hanging out of a tree the next morning. That's pretty new since the civil rights act passing.

I'm astounded by the amount of privilege shown to somehow think the experiences you've shown obviate the need for protected classes.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#763

Post by pmiller2 »

toasterlovin wrote: post #743
pmiller2 wrote: post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Undocumented” is the more correct adjective. “Out of status” if you want 3 words to do the job of 1.

I know that “undocumented” is preferred by people sympathetic to illegal immigrants, but is it actually more correct?

It depends on how you define "correct," I suppose. If you're using it as a term of art, or you're a right wing think tank, then the correct term is "illegal alien." [0] It does not actually appear in Federal law, however. [1]

The IRS uses the term "undocumented alien," which is kind of a weird, mixed construction, referring to people as "aliens" (which I always find weird, but, okay), but not "illegal." [2]

Other government agencies, and, yes, immigration advocates, use the term "undocumented immigrant," which has the virtue of both being accurate, and not referring to individuals as "illegal," when the thing that's actually illegal is the fact that they are in the country without authorization (the "undocumented" part).

In summary, "illegal alien" as a term of art: fine in my book, just weird. "Undocumented alien": sure, if you're the IRS. But, otherwise, "undocumented immigrant" is the most technically accurate, because it's not the person who is illegal, as the word "illegal" modifying "immigrant" in the phrase would indicate, but their presence in the country that is illegal.

[0]: https://www.heritage.org/immigration/commentary/undocumented...

[1]: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/may/09/steve-mccr...

[2]: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/immi...

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#764

Post by dragonwriter »

pmiller2 wrote: post #763
toasterlovin wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that “undocumented” is preferred by people sympathetic to illegal immigrants, but is it actually more correct?

It depends on how you define "correct," I suppose. If you're using it as a term of art, or you're a right wing think tank, then the correct term is "illegal alien." [0] It does not actually appear in Federal law, however. [1] The IRS uses the term "undocumented alien," which is kind of a weird, mixed construction, referring to people as "aliens" (which I always find weird, but, okay), but not "illegal." [2] Other gov…

> Other government agencies, and, yes, immigration advocates, use the term "undocumented immigrant," which has the virtue of both being accurate

“undocumented alien” is arguably more accurate; alien is just a (somewhat dated outside of law) term for a foreigner, “immigrant” has further meaning of seeking to make the country their permanent home, which is not always the case for foreigners present without current documentation of legal presence.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#765

Post by mikedilger »

brabel wrote: post #170
jobeirne wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy. Um, think you've got this backwards. Private entities shouldn't have to take on anyone they don't want as customers (for whatever reason - do you have to justify who you do or don't want in your livingroom?), but publicly-funded institutions shouldn't be able to deny service o…

I am strongly against a private business being able to refuse service to a person/organization on political grounds, even when the "victim" may seem to be performing evil actions, as long as it is not breaking any laws. One should not discriminate on the basis of race, political orientation, gender, origin or religion. Refusing service is clearly a form of discrimination. When you aim that towards your own Government…

I also think discrimination based on political grounds is a bad idea. In NZ political opinion is protected. Human Rights Act 1993, 21 Prohibited grounds of discrimination (1)(j) "political opinion, which includes the lack of a particular political opinion or any political opinion" [An exception is made for employment of a political nature, see section 31]

I think that's a better situation than the U.S. model which essentially foments society-dividing political warfare by cancelling people from different political viewpoints. It just serves to divide your country even further.

If you disagree, answer me this: Are you okay with the fact that a racist employer can fire you for not being racist enough? Are you okay with the fact that a Christian employer can fire you for supporting LGBT rights.. (they cannot fire you for being gay, but they can fire you for supporing gays)? Are you okay with the fact that an employer can fire you for supporing BLM? If political opinion is not protected, you'd better hope your employer has the same political opinions that you do... or else you'd better stay very quiet (chilling effect).

Discrimination against an arm of the government itself (ICE) seems to me to be an advanced stage symptom of a systemic societal sickness. I have no idea how it will resolve, but I wish you all the best. Hang in there.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#766

Post by qtplatypus »

prepend wrote: post #713
jrochkind1 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not to go all Godwin, but take an extreme example... Do you think a company in 1930s Germany should have ethically refused to provide software that was used in concentration camps? [In fact, there was a bit of "IT" then, used for such, but it was provided by IBM. But to make the analogy closer, let's imagine a hypothetically Germany company]. ("Companies" don't do anything by themselves, so I guess the question is…

For me, I think it’s completely inappropriate to equate ICE with 30s nazi germany state. I think its appropriate to refuse to work with nazi germany, apartheid south africa, khmer rouge, etc. But I don’t think ICE is anywhere near those regimes. If GitHub staff equate them, then I question the logic of any organization that makes those comparisons. Mainly because it they aren’t operating rationally then perhaps next…

Different people have different thresholds for “Abusive behaviour that is sufficient to break ties”. This is a subjective question of morals. You can’t say “If this organisation has X units of badness”.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#767

Post by dingaling »

moolcool wrote: post #311
overgard wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who decides? Do companies now need a chief political officer? Do they do some sort of political review of each new customer? What issues do they use to decide on? Do they deny Apple or Nike because of overseas labour conditions? IMO it's foolish for a company to wade into these waters at all unless activism is part of their brand. If you signal you're going to take a stand it ends up having to be around everything…

> So who decides? Do companies now need a chief political officer? Companies make "political" decisions every single day, in literally everything they do. Just as Apple and Nike make the _decision_ to employ the questionable overseas labour practices, providing services to them is also a _decision_. The whole point of the corporate executive branch is to make decisions for the company, it's the difference between McD…

> Companies make "political" decisions every single day, in literally everything they do.

That's incorrect.

The vast majority of companies are small and medium sized enterprises who just try to make it through. Does the launderette in the high street make political decisions? The car dealership? The scrap metal yard?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#768

Post by dingaling »

shaggyfrog wrote: post #308
lurknn wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once met a man who was a who believed deeply in aestheticism. His perception was that the only thing that mattered was the aesthetics of the thing, nothing more. Morality took a second seat, as did everything else. I could not, for the life of me, convince him that life is a bit more multidimensional than that. With each topic, he would aestheticize it, if you will, then speak of how his aesthetization of the topic…

Politics is the process of making a decision, so my point is that decision-making is inherently political. Your comment — and subtle trailing insult — is not constructive and non-sequitur.

> Politics is the process of making a decision

That seems to be based on an invalid definition:

Politics: (from Greek: Πολιτικά, politiká, 'affairs of the cities')

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#769

Post by danans »

dnautics wrote: post #758
danans wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm saying we have to work twice as hard as white people, not African Americans. The point still stands. How do you know you have to work twice as hard as white people? Which white people? Wealthy who got admitted to elite Private universities on legacy? How about working class white people with non college educated parents? This question does not deny it all that there is workplace discrimination against Asian Ame…

I think if you read what I wrote carefully and with a clear mind, you will see that I very much support efforts by the government to self regulate and reduce violence against African Americans, even if I'm pessimistic that it will work in the case of police violence. Indeed, I've been following the subject for over a decade now and have also put my money where my mouth is on this subject. It's government regulating p…

> It's government regulating private citizen's racism that I abjectly disagree with

Where and how is the government regulating private citizens' racism?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#770

Post by dehrmann »

rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> It'd attract extreme negative attention from the rest of the government, and great fear from all paying customers that an internet mob could separate them from their code at any time.

How's that Jedi contract looking now?

Post reply on HN