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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think religious discrimination is acceptable?

Religion is a protected class, so the question is moot under US law. In any case, I confess I'm always a little suspicious of this method of argument. Bob says, "I will ban neo-Nazis from my forum," and people chime in with, "Well, what about banning Catholics? Vegetarians? People who admit to liking Nickelback?". Is the principle really that if we find one single case where Bob would admit "I don't think banning tha…

I find this form of argument extremely exhausting as well.

I don't think many people would argue that we need a forum where people can advocate for pedophilia and child porn. We've clearly decided that sort of thing is bad. But saying we're going to ban child porn is not the same thing as saying we're going to ban vegetarians.

Certainly reasonable people can disagree on what types ideas deserve platforms. I imagine some (misguided but well-intentioned) people might think that providing neo-Nazis a platform to advocate for their position is a good and fair thing to do, even if they disagree with the neo-Nazi message. But it doesn't mean that people who don't think that's ok are somehow anti-free-speech fascist dictators who want to have control over every kind of speech.

I also get exhausted when people trot out the slippery-slope argument at every opportunity in order to shut down discussion. Not everything has to be a slippery slope! People are actually capable of making decisions in a nuanced, fine-grained way!

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#612
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slippery slopes are not always a fallacy, roughly the same way appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority is indeed an expert. Relevant: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-...

> appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority is indeed an expert. Sure it is. The point of the fallacy is that an argument should stand on its own merit, and has nothing to do with the person making it. Guess what - experts can be wrong too (e.g. hand washing).

In practice it is about phrasing "expert said that, so it must be true" is a fallacy, reaching a consensus via a relevant authority is not.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#613
post #347
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better way to look at it is that workers should be able to protest working on a machine they find morally wrong. The world might be a better place if people directing resources were required to stop and think "Are the workers going to willingly do this?" before making decisions.

What if developers find it morally wrong to automate away jobs? Do they get a say? Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment?

> Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment?

This seems like an unfruitful digression.

OP already agreed that the actions of ICE are immoral and that this action is within the moral rights of the workers.

The main question is about efficacy. That isn't elucidated by introducing a thought experiment where you believe the moral rights of developers are not as clear cut.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#614
Employees who want to get paid by the company and at the same time trying to control whom their company should or should not do business with should re-apply for the job that matches their beliefs.

Company cannot and should not have to comply with myriad of conflicting opinions and/or try to satisfy wishes of different opinionated groups of different flavors.

This "let's please twitter mob" mentality is hurting our country.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#615
post #161
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

My problem with this argument is that it (if applied uniformly) means that you couldn't hold IBM culpable for their role in the Holocaust. After all, "all they did" was help create a computerised census system for the democratically elected German government[1]. In reality, their computerisation of the census allowed the Nazis to far more efficiently catalogue and track Jewish people throughout the Third Reich. And b…

Github is more fascist with their code of conduct thought policing than ICE could ever be.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#616
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

I am bummed that you are making what are in effect, velvet fascist statements. This is literally one of the freedoms we have left, in that the businesses we run don't have to support things that we don't believe in.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#617
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if developers find it morally wrong to automate away jobs? Do they get a say? Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment?

> Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment? This seems like an unfruitful digression. OP already agreed that the actions of ICE are immoral and that this action is within the moral rights of the workers. The main question is about efficacy. That isn't elucidated by introducing a thought experiment w…

For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate and enforcement is routine and companies don’t question enforcement by their government.

So the question is can employees who have diverging moralities have direct input on what a company considers moral and immoral outside the common take of the population at large?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#618
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] but it's crazy to not let discrimination happen on things that are a choice. Religion is a choice. Does that mean that you're fine with discrimination based on one's religion?

Is religion a choice? I'm sure many people who believe in $DEITY, and the duties which follow from this, do not see "belief" as a choice they are making.

You've gotten downvoted for some reason, but I think you're right. The religious people I know could no more choose not to believe than I can choose to believe. Religious belief or non-belief comes as a response to life's experiences, heavily influenced by the level of indoctrination inflicted by parents when we're young.

When I was 11 or 12, I realized I didn't believe in god (I didn't know the term "atheist" at the time). My parents were Catholic, and I was forced to attend CCD weekly during the school year (the Catholic version of "Sunday School") in addition to weekly Mass. I tried so hard to believe in a god because I didn't want to disappoint or anger my parents, and I wanted to fit in with my peer group. I was trying to make a choice to believe, but that's just not a choice you can make. You either believe, or you don't.

In hindsight I'm glad I failed to choose to believe, but at the time I agonized over my non-belief daily, thinking there was something wrong with me.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really all you need to do is google "twitter mob". The most common cases involve people who did something bad, but where the punishment meted out was totally disproportional to the crime itself. Justine Sacco is the classic case, who made a bad joke and had her life turned upside down. Then you have the cases where people are so full of emotion that they get basic facts wrong. James Damore is a good example of this,…

Uh, I read the James Damore memo, and that's what I got out of it. It's the classic groundwork for an argument of scientific sexism.

I'm guessing you got that impression by reading between the lines since he certainly did not say so literally. Since the memo is pretty short, could you go back over it and offer up a justification for that assertion? Is it possible that you rushed to judgement and heard what you wanted to hear?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#620
post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment? This seems like an unfruitful digression. OP already agreed that the actions of ICE are immoral and that this action is within the moral rights of the workers. The main question is about efficacy. That isn't elucidated by introducing a thought experiment w…

For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate and enforcement is routine and companies don’t question enforcement by their government. So the question is can employees who have diverging moralities have direct input on what a company considers moral and immoral outside the common take of the population at large?

> For most Americans and, I’d guess most citizens of most countries, enforcing immigration laws isn’t a big debate

What America do you live in?

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