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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

latimes.com

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#41

Post by dx87 »

salmon30salmon wrote: post #5

I would have thought that the workers at GitHub would know as much as anyone that restricting access to one Git service would have a negligible impact on ICE. The real impact would be on GitHub themselves, as they would lose any opportunity to help guide policy or technology at ICE or any other government agency. It may feel better to watch and yell from the outside, and you may have the moral high ground in doing so…

> The real impact would be on GitHub themselves, as they would lose any opportunity to help guide policy or technology at ICE or any other government agency.

There's about a 0% chance that a government agency would change anything about their policies based on what GitHub employees say. Companies that work on government contracts get "report cards" detailing the agency's satisfaction with their performance, and any other government agency can view the reports for that company, so it's in their best interest to try and get favorable reviews by doing what the agency wants.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#42

Post by nordsieck »

Kinrany wrote: post #3
johncena33 wrote: post #2

I guess this is the reason lot of corporates try to stay out of politics. Because once you set a precedence then people will use that as to push their own political agendas. I personally don't like the slippery slope argument since it's very lazy and justifies inaction in many cases. But at the same time when I see news like this, I just wonder how long it will take two different subgroups trying push their own confl…

Slippery slopes are not always a fallacy, roughly the same way appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority is indeed an expert. Relevant: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-...

> appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority is indeed an expert.

Sure it is.

The point of the fallacy is that an argument should stand on its own merit, and has nothing to do with the person making it. Guess what - experts can be wrong too (e.g. hand washing).

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#43

Post by julianeon »

salmon30salmon wrote: post #5

I would have thought that the workers at GitHub would know as much as anyone that restricting access to one Git service would have a negligible impact on ICE. The real impact would be on GitHub themselves, as they would lose any opportunity to help guide policy or technology at ICE or any other government agency. It may feel better to watch and yell from the outside, and you may have the moral high ground in doing so…

How is GitHub supposed to change ICE's policies by working with ICE?

"Hey, you see this part of the code where you sort through the parents, to separate them from their children? Maybe don't do that?"

ICE is going to ignore any unprofessional suggestions, that's not what they hired GitHub to do.

In fact the usual argument employers give when you don't do exactly they hired you to do - "that's not what we hired you for" - is pretty strong. And unless GitHub sabotages their own work (which they won't), then their work will simply be in service to ICE's goals. There's no room left over for contributing non-work opinions.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#44

Post by ravenstine »

rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

If only people cared this much when tech companies contract with or kowtow to arms of openly racist authoritarian governments abroad.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#45

Post by ancorevard »

mchanson wrote: post #31
johncena33 wrote: post #2

I guess this is the reason lot of corporates try to stay out of politics. Because once you set a precedence then people will use that as to push their own political agendas. I personally don't like the slippery slope argument since it's very lazy and justifies inaction in many cases. But at the same time when I see news like this, I just wonder how long it will take two different subgroups trying push their own confl…

We are going through a very strange and extreme period in US History. Corporations are a huge part of the political landscape. Of course workers who are powerful will demand things of their workplaces. All corporations are political. By accepting the ICE contract previously it was political. Now by reversing they would be changing sides. They were already in the political fray.

"By accepting the ICE contract previously it was political."

Just a reminder that government entities like ICE are executing the current laws of the land.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#46

Post by fennecfoxen »

mchanson wrote: post #31
johncena33 wrote: post #2

I guess this is the reason lot of corporates try to stay out of politics. Because once you set a precedence then people will use that as to push their own political agendas. I personally don't like the slippery slope argument since it's very lazy and justifies inaction in many cases. But at the same time when I see news like this, I just wonder how long it will take two different subgroups trying push their own confl…

We are going through a very strange and extreme period in US History. Corporations are a huge part of the political landscape. Of course workers who are powerful will demand things of their workplaces. All corporations are political. By accepting the ICE contract previously it was political. Now by reversing they would be changing sides. They were already in the political fray.

The idea that all corporations are political is obviously quite true, especially insofar as potentially-everything is political.

What's interesting is erosion of the norm that corporations should not be particularly political (picking and choosing customers based on politics, touting allegiance to one specific side). This was once a somewhat stronger (political) norm that has fallen by the wayside as the nation has grown more bitterly divided.

I would be happy to see it come back somewhat; I am not convinced that corporate CEOs having an outsized influence on politics is going to take our nation to a healthy place in the long term, either politically, economically, or intellectually. I also expect that the demands of the new orthodoxy will get much, much worse before the situation gets any better.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#47

Post by duxup »

johncena33 wrote: post #26
duxup wrote: post #6

Is GitHub a hug part of what ICE ... does? Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company actually detaining people, but call me terrible but I'm not sure I'd feel the same about letting them pay to host some code...

This is a genuine question. I want to immigrate to USA, but currently there is no easy way to immigrate to USA. On the contrary Canada has a fair immigration system that allowed me to stay, work and eventually be citizen. Why don't people push for a fair immigration system in USA instead of abolishing ICE? What exactly am I missing here?

Pushing for legislative and political changes would very much be the right path to go.

As far as ICE goes I think people are understandably shocked by ICE's actions that have been extraordinarily cruel under the current administration, so ICE gets a lot of attention.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#48

Post by jobeirne »

rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy.

Um, think you've got this backwards. Private entities shouldn't have to take on anyone they don't want as customers (for whatever reason - do you have to justify who you do or don't want in your livingroom?), but publicly-funded institutions shouldn't be able to deny service on political grounds.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#49

Post by diN0bot »

duxup wrote: post #6

Is GitHub a hug part of what ICE ... does? Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company actually detaining people, but call me terrible but I'm not sure I'd feel the same about letting them pay to host some code...

Maybe it's a spectrum thing, and everyone has a line they don't want to cross. There are people and organizations that don't align with my beliefs, but sure, it's cool they use my tools.

However, would you be ok with Hitler hosting code on your service if it contributed in some small way to genocide? That _does_ make me feel ick. Tacit support by large numbers of "not really effected" people is what made the holocaust and slavery and jim crow, etc, possible.

I'm not comparing ICE to Violent White Supremacy... but it's worth staying informed and revisiting our own boundaries as the situation changes.

Skin color, nationality and ethnicity are playing a huge role in how we're treating people right now, and the spectrum of humaninhumane is getting wider and wider with tacit support :-(

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#50

Post by drunkpotato »

Great! This seems like a perfect example of (employment) markets working in a good way. If the employees want the company to act a certain way or take a certain stance, or don't like a contract the company is engaging in, they can first lobby the company to change, and if enough are dissatisfied with the response they can vote with their feet and leave. I realize it's not always so simple, but I see this as a positive sign of workers using our market power.
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