After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract • Hacker News Board

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#551

Post by jasonmp85 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:46 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #191

johncena33 wrote: post #2

I guess this is the reason lot of corporates try to stay out of politics. Because once you set a precedence then people will use that as to push their own political agendas. I personally don't like the slippery slope argument since it's very lazy and justifies inaction in many cases. But at the same time when I see news like this, I just wonder how long it will take two different subgroups trying push their own confl…

> then people will use that as to push their own political agendas It's always a very small number of very loud people too. Worse yet, these people have mastered the art of silencing dissent from their colleagues by using kafkatraps. There are tons of republicans and libertarians in tech, but in the average office, you wouldn't know that given how effectively such people have been silenced for fear of being accused o…

> There are tons of republicans and libertarians in tech, but in the average office, you wouldn't know that given how effectively such people have been silenced for fear of being accused of thoughtcrime and heresy

Have they tried growing as people to not be so horrid that people would recoil if they knew what was really inside their heads?

We have no obligation to tolerate the intolerant.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#552

Post by jasonmp85 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

DudeInBasement wrote: post #10

johncena33 wrote: post #2

I guess this is the reason lot of corporates try to stay out of politics. Because once you set a precedence then people will use that as to push their own political agendas. I personally don't like the slippery slope argument since it's very lazy and justifies inaction in many cases. But at the same time when I see news like this, I just wonder how long it will take two different subgroups trying push their own confl…

One side gets de-humanized and shown the door. I'll let you guess which side that is. This is why I think good people prefer a-political companies. It is sad, that there are people who have commitments/families, and they are taken hostage by this.

"Good people" is a hell of a euphemism for "members of a hateful death cult", but you do you.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#553

Post by iron0013 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #535

matwood wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You touch on an interesting point on the continuing amassing of power around corporations. ICE was created by people who were voted on by the populace. A corporation refusing to work with a legal entity really shows just how much power corporations now have. Github refuses to work with ICE today and hypothetically tomorrow will only host code for Democrats? I'm certainly no fan of ICE, but I'm also not sure I like ce…

> hypothetically tomorrow will only host code for Democrats I can imagine a more disturbing (possible) hypothetical: the activists are successful, and Github terminates it's ICE contract. Nobody else will host their code. ICE still has source code that needs to be hosted, so they hire more developers to maintain their own internal source-code repository. Those developers are subsequently blackballed from future emplo…

Why is that disturbing? Corporations deciding not to hire developers who have worked for oppressive governments seems perfectly reasonable.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#554

Post by jasonmp85 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:48 PM UTC

PascLeRasc wrote: post #112

DudeInBasement wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One side gets de-humanized and shown the door. I'll let you guess which side that is. This is why I think good people prefer a-political companies. It is sad, that there are people who have commitments/families, and they are taken hostage by this.

Since the context is ICE, I would really think about rephrasing your comment about conservative employees being "taken hostage".

This must clearly be an oversight, since "good people"—one would hope—think about how their words and actions might impact others, and work to address those impacts in an open and vulnerable way free from judgment.

I'm sure they just can't edit the post because it's been too long.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#555

Post by robbrown451 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #347

49531 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better way to look at it is that workers should be able to protest working on a machine they find morally wrong. The world might be a better place if people directing resources were required to stop and think "Are the workers going to willingly do this?" before making decisions.

What if developers find it morally wrong to automate away jobs? Do they get a say? Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment?

In that case they probably should quit and join a different company. I mean, if they don't agree with the core function of their job, why are they working there?

Regardless, if enough people think it is wrong that the company goes out of business, so be it. I don't think that is likely, but ok. Automation is going to continue to happen no matter what.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#556

Post by jlokier » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

adwn wrote: post #373

Miner49er wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes way too far in limiting freedom IMO. It makes sense to not let people discriminate on things that are immutable (like skin color), but it's crazy to not let discrimination happen on things that are a choice. Just like I can decide not to let people not wearing shoes or shirts into my business, why shouldn't I be able to deny entry to a neo-Nazi? What if I'm losing black customers because I have racists regu…

> [...] but it's crazy to not let discrimination happen on things that are a choice. Religion is a choice. Does that mean that you're fine with discrimination based on one's religion?

Is religion a choice?

I'm sure many people who believe in $DEITY, and the duties which follow from this, do not see "belief" as a choice they are making.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#557

Post by ianleeclark » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:50 PM UTC

rattray wrote: post #348

49531 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better way to look at it is that workers should be able to protest working on a machine they find morally wrong. The world might be a better place if people directing resources were required to stop and think "Are the workers going to willingly do this?" before making decisions.

Yes, I'm glad that GitHub workers are allowed to protest this. It is heartening. That doesn't change the fact that I'm personally disappointed that they're executing that privilege on this particular issue.

Pretty disappointing. Workers protesting those people who can't stop losing thousands of children at a time.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#558

Post by _8j50 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

The private sector should actively refuse interactions especially with government! Especially when they serve multiple governments. I don't advocate companies taking social stances on politics, I am all against it. The people should be doing that, companies need to stay out of politics.

That said, this isn't mere politics. Actual humans can and are dying including children, the individuals at github/microsoft must excercise their conscious and act accordingly. Same applies to war. This isn't akin to refusing service to democracts or republicans but more like refusing service to organized criminals who also happen to be a government agency. All companies have a right and an obligation to refuse cooperation with a government agency that willfully causes death,torture and imprisonment without due process of innocent civilians. That is not a political stance.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#559

Post by polk » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:52 PM UTC

phoe-krk wrote: post #374

polk wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual systemic progress happens through legislative changes. Social pressure is used by the public to show which issues they care about, and what politicians should be working on. The protest are one strong signal here. Support by major companies, while admittedly less effective, is another signal that helps. Claiming that it's useless is false and claiming it's cheap is ignorant - the OP clearly demonstrates that a…

To quote myself from a different comment, I did not mean to imply that the visibility of these issues hasn't changed; it's quite obvious that these issues are much closer to the surface of everyday discourse than they were earlier. The visibility alone does nil, though, when it comes to everyday practical effects. The mere fact that this issue is visible did not change the death counts. Death statistics during police…

The point is that the visibility is the best way to drive legislative change. Those changes will then have real-world impact. You're right that this is a slow process, but it's still the best we have in our current system.

In reality, police brutality is nothing new. Politicians should have made changes to keep police accountable years ago, but have consistently failed to do so. Now we've reached a tipping point where the public at large demands change, which needs to come from politicians, and the protests are the manifestation of this.

Does a Tweet from a CEO immediately fix the issue? Of course not. But that's like saying any individual is not going to make a difference when protesting, so they shouldn't bother. Obviously this will only lead to complacency, which will only cause the problem get worse. Democracy, in this case, means as much public pressure as possible so that politicians can no longer ignore the issue without fear of being voted out of office.

Every single bit of additional pressure helps the cause, and whether or not it's also good PR is irrelevant.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#560

Post by tsimionescu » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #526

tsimionescu wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are in favor (or in the process) of putting large groups of people who have not directly harmed anyone in concentration camps, separating them from their families, keeping children in cages etc, THEN you are considered a racist authoritarian almost akin to mid 1940's Germany.

My position on immigration has been the same for decades. 1. All persons that are not a danger to others and can prove financial viability (i.e they have a job sponsorship, or other means of self support with out needing social welfare) should be allowed to immigrate on a temporary basis 2. The Immigration process should be limited to only establishment of ID to clear a person from known dangers (i.e medical, crimina…

I am not a US citizen or resident (I am just an interested observer), and I was in college for much of Obama's presidency. I did look up to him at the time, but have since learned more of the reality behind the PR and have completely turned my opinion against him. He was around as bad as all presidents have lately been, on matters of immigration, external politics and so on (going so far as assassinating one of his own citizens for suspicion of terrorism).

And related to breaking the law and separation from your family, the kinds of crimes you need to commit for that to happen are usually much worse than immigration without a permit. Also, I wasn't thinking of the general idea of deporting someone who has children, but specifically to the cases of families who immigrated illegally, had a child in the US, and are now being deported while leaving a small child without care and with little hope of ever reconnecting with their parents. And the solution is not necessarily to let the parents stay, but to allow them to take their child with them.

Otherwise, your immigration policy sounds pretty nice. I am assuming you would also carve out exceptions for asylum seekers, but apart from that, it sounds positively utopian compared to anything like current practices, from what I've read.