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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

latimes.com

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#421

Post by code_sloth »

kuzimoto wrote: post #265
jobeirne wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - in free societies you should be able to refuse service on any grounds, including those things. Otherwise you're permitting the government to forcibly compel you to allocate your time and resources to ends they define. In free societies, governments should only be able to forcibly compel people not to do things (murder, threaten, steal, etc.) - see the concept of "negative rights."

You are completely right. In a free society you should have the liberty to do business with whomever you want (no matter how politically in-correct your reasoning is). The great thing about this, is that someone else will realize there is now an under-served market, and create a business to fulfill that need. The same case can be made for hiring practices.

> The great thing about this, is that someone else will realize there is now an under-served market, and create a business to fulfill that need.

Except that every other business can now refuse to serve that business services, because that business serves people nobody else likes.

Given even time and systematic discrimination, that business owner and everyone they serve will be driven to destitution and cease to be a meaningful market segment. They, along with the people they serve can't afford to buy anything anyways.

Should society should just let them die because of the magic of capitalism and (???) rights?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#422

Post by shuntress »

matwood wrote: post #384
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

You touch on an interesting point on the continuing amassing of power around corporations. ICE was created by people who were voted on by the populace. A corporation refusing to work with a legal entity really shows just how much power corporations now have. Github refuses to work with ICE today and hypothetically tomorrow will only host code for Democrats? I'm certainly no fan of ICE, but I'm also not sure I like ce…

>Github refuses to work with ICE today and hypothetically tomorrow will only host code for Democrats?

I don't believe that political organisations are considered a protected class so yes, GitHub could decide to only host code for Democrats.

Your point seems to be "This is a slippery slope. Where do we draw the line?"

I think it is entirely reasonable that there _should_ be a line.

To take your example to the disturbing extreme, consider this: "Github refuses to work with ICE today and hypothetically tomorrow will refuse to build crematoria in extermination camps?"

There must be a line _somewhere_. Finding the best place to draw that line is a major challenge that requires significant and likely fraught discussion but it is something that must be done.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#423

Post by jlokier »

umvi wrote: post #352
flamble wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In both cases, you very clearly have some responsibility. In an incredibly straightforward and unambiguous way. I'm struggling to see how this is intended as a counterexample. Is it because disapproving of homosexuality is wrong? That doesn't at all change the entailment of responsibility by the conjunction of foreknowledge of consequences with uncoerced action. If you walk out into a public street and fire a pistol…

Well, I disagree. I have more of a "live and let live" or "golden rule" type philosophy. I wouldn't want someone denying me service because they disagree with my beliefs (and by extension, actions), so I don't deny service to people who have beliefs (and by extension, actions) I disagree with.

"Live and let live" and "golden rule" are great philosophies to live by.

But you still have responsibility when you assist others in doing things, whether you agree or disagree with those things.

Otherwise you are ignoring the "let live" part of your own philosophy.

For example, someone comes to you asking for your services to help them kill a third person.

If you believe in the "let live" part of your philosophy, you cannot assist in depriving someone of life in that way.

Same applies to the golden rule. It's easy to say you don't want to be denied assistance from others, so you won't deny it to them. But that's the easy scenario. Consider, when Alice is asked by Bob to help damage you, do you think the golden rule tells Alice to deprive you of life and liberty? I don't think it does.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#424

Post by mc32 »

archagon wrote: post #382
mc32 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if developers find it morally wrong to automate away jobs? Do they get a say? Is it within their moral rights for backhoe operators demand manual ditch digging too because that will benefit their friends who lost jobs to powered equipment?

To some extent, yes. The economy exists for the benefit of humanity and not the other way around. The question is: does the automation help us build things that were impossible before, or does it exist for the sole purpose of cutting jobs and funneling more money to the executives?

Let’s say we’ll go that far and companies accept that...

Does everyone refuse to work for Komatsu, John Deere, Liebherr, etc? Is that even possible?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#425

Post by gerbal »

LeanderK wrote: post #251
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

I sometimes wonder why the world is in such a pity state. A lot of improvements seem obvious, but nothing gets done while a lot of those things are not really opposed by anybody. Why can multi-national corporations essentially exploit people in poorer parts of the world? Why can authoritarian regimes run freely and profit from exploiting people or attack democratic institutions? I think this line of thinking (whether…

> I have to admit that I am not sure what ICE is doing wrong

ICE is pretty bad at following US law and pretty good at being cruel to everyone in their path

- ICE routinely detains and deports citizens and legal residents (guess their skin color) [1]

- ICE routinely abuses those placed in their care and doesn't punish known abusers [2] [3] [4] [7]

- ICE is happy to hurt its law enforcement practices to round up more immigrants [5]

- under Obama ICE was actively ignoring court orders [6] this is much worse under Trump

- ICE asylum officers (i.e. lawyers and experts) have reported extensive cruel and illegal practices [8]

[1] https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-citizens-ice-20180...

[2] https://theintercept.com/2018/10/11/adelanto-ice-detention-c...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/17/us/sexual-assault-ice-det...

[4] https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/politics/im...

[5] https://www.texasobserver.org/ice-hsi-letter-kirstjen-nielse...

[6] https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/ice-and-border-p...

[7] https://www.aclusandiego.org/cbp-child-abuse-foia/

[8] https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-11-15/asylum-off...

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#426

Post by VBprogrammer »

roenxi wrote: post #409
VBprogrammer wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is that someone else will realize there is now an under-served market, and create a business to fulfill that need. That is a childishly simplistic understanding of how free markets work. There is no way a retail business would be established to service the needs of 2% of the population who are wheelchair users for example, when they could easily make their stores considerably more efficient by making the aisles a l…

> There is no way a retail business would be established to service the needs of 2% of the population Slow down there, you're going to need more evidence than that to claim that an underserved segment of the population isn't an attractive commercial target. I agree that wheelchair users might be comparatively expensive customers, but if that 2% stat is correct they would be profitable to someone. A business with 2% o…

Based loosely on 1.2 million wheelchair users in the UK for a population of 50 million it's in the right ballpark.

Honestly, I think the claim that the free market would solve this is so outlandish that the burden of proof is on those who believe it.

Maybe, just maybe, in a dense population centre like London their needs would be met by a few specialist 'accessable' stores. But what about some rural town of a few thousand people?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#427

Post by zaroth »

dsr_ wrote: post #66

Corporations are people. If they don't act ethically, we can't expect people to act ethically. Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good. Better, though, is to not accept any contracts with any government that runs concentration camps. Small steps are good. Big steps are better. PS: great fear from all paying customers that run concentration camps that an internet mob could separate them…

Regardless of whether you are technically correct in referring to ICE as running concentration camps (IMO you are grossly mistaken), statements like these simply act to shut down debate on a topic and suck the air out of the conversation. They should be avoided entirely, and flagged when they occur.

I've made a similar mistaken before, and been called out on it.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#428

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

sergiotapia wrote: post #145

Is the US the only country on _earth_ where the media is so hellbent on propaganda for opening the borders? I can't think of another nation that does this. Not brazil, not bolivia, certainly not argentina, not spain, hell no japan lol, russia of course not. What makes the US so special in this unique problem with the media?

>Is the US the only country on _earth_ where the media is so hellbent on propaganda for opening the borders?

Canada is on-par or perhaps worse. France feels pretty similar.

From my observations, this happens in countries with high immigrant populations and an absent shared identity.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#430

Post by swebs »

insulanus wrote: post #318
swebs wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but currently there is no easy way to immigrate to USA The USA has the most immigrants than any other country in the world at almost 47 million residents. That's 4 times higher than the second place country. And the vast majority of them came perfectly legally. For every one person that immigrates to Canada, 6 immigrate to the USA. I don't really know what people are asking for here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li…

It's number 67 in the world, using immigrants per capita. Still, a pretty high rate of foreign-born population.

Per capita doesn't matter at all in this context though. If you were looking to immigrate to a country, you would have a better chance at getting in to the country that accepts 1 million people per year rather than the one that accepts 1,000 per year. The current population of each country is not a factor.
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