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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

latimes.com

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#261

Post by tpmx »

overgard wrote: post #237
shaggyfrog wrote: post #77

There are a few comments in here already decrying “politicization”. Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. You cannot choose to “avoid” them; even suggesting you can be politically neutral is a political stance that comes from a place of privilege, because only the privileged can avoid experiencing negative political consequences inside their bubble. Collaboration with ICE is collaboration…

So who decides? Do companies now need a chief political officer? Do they do some sort of political review of each new customer? What issues do they use to decide on? Do they deny Apple or Nike because of overseas labour conditions? IMO it's foolish for a company to wade into these waters at all unless activism is part of their brand. If you signal you're going to take a stand it ends up having to be around everything…

There are interesting parallels to this well-defined role: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_commissar

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#262

Post by xenocyon »

rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy.

I'm having trouble understanding the linchpin of your argument. Government agencies don't have any inherent right to your business and you are free to deny them service for reasons political or otherwise.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#263

Post by tsimionescu »

syshum wrote: post #88
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

>> I can't see how this helps improve immigration, In many ways it does the opposite, for reforms to work you need to build coalitions from all political segments of society, vilifying political opponents (the ones that believe in some kind of immigration control and do not support fully open borders) does not build that coalition that is need to fight the unethical and illegal acts. Instead it puts people on the def…

If you are in favor (or in the process) of putting large groups of people who have not directly harmed anyone in concentration camps, separating them from their families, keeping children in cages etc, THEN you are considered a racist authoritarian almost akin to mid 1940's Germany.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#264

Post by NE2z2T9qi »

seph-reed wrote: post #193
NE2z2T9qi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing standard, regular service to anyone willing to pay for it is almost always the "default" non-political way of doing business. Do you want an ideological purity test to buy a bagel or a car? Refusing to provide a service when you have the capacity to provide it is a much stronger political act because it essentially implies "I hate you so much that I'm willing to harm myself (foregoing profit) in order to th…

I'm sorry, but with power comes responsibility. The poor little CEOs are going to have to recognize that their decisions have consequences, and those consequences must be thought through. They don't just get to play Capitalist without any repercussions because they call themselves non-political. If you have power, you are responsible for what happens with it. It's not just free money.

And if you don't get your way, what's next? Shutting off ICE employee's water, electricity, and telephone service? And why not kick them out of their apartments too since sheltering an ICE officer helps enable them.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#265

Post by kuzimoto »

jobeirne wrote: post #187
the-dude wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are carefully tiptoeing around race & gender here.

Nope - in free societies you should be able to refuse service on any grounds, including those things. Otherwise you're permitting the government to forcibly compel you to allocate your time and resources to ends they define. In free societies, governments should only be able to forcibly compel people not to do things (murder, threaten, steal, etc.) - see the concept of "negative rights."

You are completely right. In a free society you should have the liberty to do business with whomever you want (no matter how politically in-correct your reasoning is).

The great thing about this, is that someone else will realize there is now an under-served market, and create a business to fulfill that need.

The same case can be made for hiring practices.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#266

Post by anxmKAS »

sergiotapia wrote: post #145

Is the US the only country on _earth_ where the media is so hellbent on propaganda for opening the borders? I can't think of another nation that does this. Not brazil, not bolivia, certainly not argentina, not spain, hell no japan lol, russia of course not. What makes the US so special in this unique problem with the media?

The media in Germany is fiercely pro opening. The state television racket is pro opening.

After all, the upper classes need their Romanian builders and package delivery people to maintain their lifestyle and large mansions.

Additionally, they can feel good about themselves and ignore the despair in faces of supermarket cashiers once they reach a certain age and are still on minimum wage (or are even lower paid contractors that can be fired at any time).

Isn't "socialism" great?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#267

Post by dastbe »

duxup wrote: post #210
dastbe wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your government isn't willing to compromise with you but desires something from you, it's pretty straightforward that you should withhold as much as you can until they decide to compromise.

>If your government isn't willing to compromise with you I'm not sure I see a reason that the government must compromise with a give company. If Boeing decided that ICE should behave even worse, would we cheer on ICE for compromising? I think we'd argue that the right place for that sort of thing is at the ballot box.

You're conflating the end result and the means. I wouldn't cheer on any company doing that, just like I don't cheer on companies when they donate to campaigns for racists or people who vote for racists.

The government also doesn't have to compromise. Maybe there's a competitor who is less particular about who they do business with or in fact thinks the cruelty is actually cool and good. gitlab is 100% neutral on who they do business with, for example.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#268

Post by goatinaboat »

shaggyfrog wrote: post #77

There are a few comments in here already decrying “politicization”. Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. You cannot choose to “avoid” them; even suggesting you can be politically neutral is a political stance that comes from a place of privilege, because only the privileged can avoid experiencing negative political consequences inside their bubble. Collaboration with ICE is collaboration…

even suggesting you can be politically neutral is a political stance that comes from a place of privilege, because only the privileged can avoid experiencing negative political consequences inside their bubble

Yeah... no. I’m politically active, I support a variety of causes. But I can’t support every cause - I’m not privileged enough to be a full-time “activist” of which there seem to be a surprising number these days - and sometimes I just want to write some damn code and focus on that and put food on the table and donate what I can after.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#269

Post by coffeemaniac »

akerro wrote: post #209
shaggyfrog wrote: post #77

There are a few comments in here already decrying “politicization”. Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. You cannot choose to “avoid” them; even suggesting you can be politically neutral is a political stance that comes from a place of privilege, because only the privileged can avoid experiencing negative political consequences inside their bubble. Collaboration with ICE is collaboration…

>Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. Yes, but also companies exist literally only to make money. Companies can't exist without workers. Once a company finds itself in a position of conflict of interest between political views of workers and point of existence of the company - where contracts bring money... we're going to see interesting things. I wonder, who will break first? The company…

> Who will make future contracts with such company? Would you outsource your project delivery to a company where employees decide whether your project/office/political stand is good or bad?

I'd gladly prefer to contract with a company that's not known for supporting agencies running concentration camps. This political moment will pass, but twenty years from now after this history chapters have been written on ICE, we still have to live with the choices we made.

> Who will risk employing a person who rebels against board members of a company and causes financial damages over broken contract?

Plenty of companies. Our skill set is very much in demand.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#270

Post by wolco »

tsimionescu wrote: post #216
toomuchtodo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Edit: Removed “people are lazy”, poor choice of words) People feel despair, hence pushing on Github instead of the political process. I’m all for unconventional leverage, but Microsoft is a trillion dollar org and has shareholders; this isn’t some VC funded dual class share startup where the founder has a blank check to do whatever they want. Edit: Can’t give up on the political process, that’s where the change happ…

You've got this backwards. What is happening here is the real political process - people congregating and trying to achieve their political goals through organizations they can actually influence. Organizing to convince your employer, or your local government, or your school board or whatever organization you can to push things in some direction is the political process. Sure, voting is one aspect of it, but it is by…

I would love for the big corporations to refuse to deal with ICE and allow smaller companies to provide service.
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