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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

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251–260 of 841 posts

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#251
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

I sometimes wonder why the world is in such a pity state. A lot of improvements seem obvious, but nothing gets done while a lot of those things are not really opposed by anybody. Why can multi-national corporations essentially exploit people in poorer parts of the world? Why can authoritarian regimes run freely and profit from exploiting people or attack democratic institutions?

I think this line of thinking (whether applied to corporations or people) is a reason. It can be applied very, very broadly and essentially result in doing nothing if a corporation/country/whatever doesn't not hold up to your ethical standard and while formally complaining about some violation. The company doesn't care and you can feel better. There's some truth in "actions speak louder than words".

There's a point where some kind of real action is required to have an impact. And it will more often than not result in a situation that's financially worse. One can't usually follow ethical standards and get the maximum profit at the same time. It's obvious and one should calculate with it. The freedom to choose also implies responsibility to choose.

I am not totally idealistic, some things would result in economic suicide and some would not really help the cause. But one can weigh them and I am not convinced that Github runs a huge risk by denying ICE service. Although I have to admit that I am not sure what ICE is doing wrong. I am not an American. But I really don't like this style of reasoning where the negative financial consequence is just accepted as a reason without really questioning whether it's justified. Amazon already banned the police from using Rekognition, so it can't be total lunacy.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#252
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the position, but nowadays Twitter is full of #BlackLivesMatter posts, pride flags can be seen commonly, all while, to bring the two most currently visible things that haven't changed, the sex/race pay gaps are still there, and Black folk are still much more likely to die during police interventions. I guess I'm glad that the recognition and posts from CEOs is there, but posting rainbow flags and "Black…

I don't buy into the theory that "things haven't changed" and thus discounting visibility. Protests happened in the past too? Do we discount that? It's all cynicism and divisiveness these days about how someone isn't doing enough, even among folks who share values ... in favor of I don't know what standard ...

OK, that's correct; I might not have expressed myself clearly. Slightly edited my post up there. Thanks.

I did not mean to imply that the visibility of these issues hasn't changed; it's quite obvious that these issues are much closer to the surface of everyday discourse than they were earlier.

The visibility alone does nil, though, when it comes to everyday practical effects. The mere fact that this issue is visible did not change the death counts. Death statistics during police interventions can be considered one such standard. It's a good first step that needs to be followed by further steps.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#253

i wish someone of these workers quit. Tons of IT jobs even in covid. If you are not quitting then you are also profiting form ICE contract.

> If you are not quitting then you are also profiting form ICE contract.

This is reductive, right up there with "Why don't you move to Canada?" Do you agree with every single action done by all entities you belong to: family, employer, HOA, neighborhood, city council, state/province, and country? If you disagree with the actions of a family member - is your solution to cut them off immediately without talking to them? We spend one third of our working lives with our employers - sometimes we like them well enough to entitle us to "interventions".

Additionally, in their quest to reduce churn/lower salaries, the employers are the ones who seek employee loyalty by convincing us that we are "like family", or show that they are humane (or at least not amoral). They can't have their cake and eat it - if you're an amoral company - own it like Oracle does and take the hit on the type of employees you get.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#254
post #99

If working with ICE is so reprehensible, why are none of these employees taking advantage of their in-demand skillset and moving on to companies that better respect their values? I'm sympathetic with those who point out that corporations typically have more leverage than individual employees, and that changing jobs is not so easy for those who are less privileged. That category, though, of "less privileged" with rega…

Isn't this the same argument as "If you hate America so much why don't you just leave"? Don't employees have more power to change their employer if they are still employees?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#255
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is using the correct definition of concentration camp, you are the one in error. Concentration camps have existed outside Nazi Germany. Just because that was the most horrible instance doesn't mean that other instances stopped being "concentration camps" just like how a particularly horrible murder doesn't make a less violent murder into a non-murder. https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

The colloquial definition of the term is different from the technical definition, but they don't even meet the technical definition. According to your definition, a concentration camp is an "internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment.." People of certain minority groups aren't being rounded up. Illega…

Illegal immigrants in the US are most certainly a minority group.

It's not hyperbolic and unproductive, it's the plain truth, just like the Japanese concentration camps during WW2.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic, businesses would be able to turn away customers based on their race.

Isn't that what the status quo in the US is? AFAIK outside of discrimination in a few specific industries (e.g. insurance rates), there is very little discrimination protection for customers.

You're asking if the status quo is that private companies can discriminate based on race? No, it is not.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are carefully tiptoeing around race & gender here.

Nope - in free societies you should be able to refuse service on any grounds, including those things. Otherwise you're permitting the government to forcibly compel you to allocate your time and resources to ends they define. In free societies, governments should only be able to forcibly compel people not to do things (murder, threaten, steal, etc.) - see the concept of "negative rights."

I mean this in the nicest possible way; have you ever faced discrimination based on the colour of your skin, gender, sexual orientation, disabilities or anything else which is protected by law in most civilised countries?

If, like a significant portion of the HN audience, you are straight, white, middle class and male it's probably easier for you to dismiss the right to fair treatment than it might be for individuals in those categories.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#258
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. Yes, but also companies exist literally only to make money. Companies can't exist without workers. Once a company finds itself in a position of conflict of interest between political views of workers and point of existence of the company - where contracts bring money... we're going to see interesting things. I wonder, who will break first? The company…

> Yes, but also companies exist literally only to make money. False.

Exactly. Everyone needs to study the history of the Friedman doctrine before parroting statements like that.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#260
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy. It really isn't. Private institutions are under no obligation to collaborate with public agencies unless explicitly required by the Defense Production Act[0]. Please remember that the government is meant to serve us, not the other way around. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…

I don't think OP meant it's lunacy because of any legal obligations private companies have to a federal organization, but rather due to the message it would send to current and future customers.
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