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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

latimes.com

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#71

Post by marpstar »

jobeirne wrote: post #48
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy. Um, think you've got this backwards. Private entities shouldn't have to take on anyone they don't want as customers (for whatever reason - do you have to justify who you do or don't want in your livingroom?), but publicly-funded institutions shouldn't be able to deny service o…

GP didn't say they should be required to work with certain entities, only that it could jeopardize their stance with other, less controversial, entities.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#72

Post by enobrev »

nordsieck wrote: post #42
Kinrany wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slippery slopes are not always a fallacy, roughly the same way appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority is indeed an expert. Relevant: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-...

> appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority is indeed an expert. Sure it is. The point of the fallacy is that an argument should stand on its own merit, and has nothing to do with the person making it. Guess what - experts can be wrong too (e.g. hand washing).

What about hand-washing?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#73

Post by karpierz »

Fellshard wrote: post #11
duxup wrote: post #6

Is GitHub a hug part of what ICE ... does? Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company actually detaining people, but call me terrible but I'm not sure I'd feel the same about letting them pay to host some code...

There's a big strain of consequentialism running through the modern left - no neutral service is held as neutral if it permits the 'wrong' customers.

Suppose that:

1. You provide tools to a group. 2. You believe (in a informed way) that the group intends to act immorally. 3. Your tools will make the group more effective at acting immorally.

Do you have any responsibility for what happens?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#74

Post by bkmayweather »

With that kind of workforce I'd be reluctant to host private repositories there.

Who knows what a radicalized workforce will do in the search for compromising material.

Curious how Friedman will get out if that one. What goes around, comes around.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#75

Post by dnissley »

jobeirne wrote: post #48
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy. Um, think you've got this backwards. Private entities shouldn't have to take on anyone they don't want as customers (for whatever reason - do you have to justify who you do or don't want in your livingroom?), but publicly-funded institutions shouldn't be able to deny service o…

By this logic, businesses would be able to turn away customers based on their race.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#76

Post by nvahalik »

nahtnam wrote: post #65
jobeirne wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy. Um, think you've got this backwards. Private entities shouldn't have to take on anyone they don't want as customers (for whatever reason - do you have to justify who you do or don't want in your livingroom?), but publicly-funded institutions shouldn't be able to deny service o…

What about anti-discrimnation laws? Where do you stand on the issue with the baker refusing to bake a cake for the gay couple?

Would also love to hear the answer to this question. You can’t have it both ways.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#77

Post by shaggyfrog »

There are a few comments in here already decrying “politicization”.

Guess what? Politics are interwoven in every aspect of our lives. You cannot choose to “avoid” them; even suggesting you can be politically neutral is a political stance that comes from a place of privilege, because only the privileged can avoid experiencing negative political consequences inside their bubble.

Collaboration with ICE is collaboration with ICE, whether it’s “just hosting code” or actually contracted by them to develop their systems. It’s the same deal with Amazon or Facebook or whoever. If you work for them you need to admit to yourself that you are an enabler. Most people can’t admit that to themselves, so they maintain an unhealthy cognitive dissonance to keep going.

And it hurts when that dissonance is shattered.

Comparing supporting ICE to a marriage is nonsense, and thinking you can somehow help them be better by keeping them as a customer? A totally naive concept that has been shown not to work in practice since the US 2016 election. (In fact, supporting the monster makes them stronger; if it made them weaker, why would they keep using your product?)

The reckoning we are seeing in tech is long overdue. As developers we are no longer seeing our actions as “politically neutral” and are starting to understand the power we yield collectively to make positive change to our industry.

Nat Friedman is on the wrong side of history here. These empty words are no longer sufficient. Hopefully he figures that out before his tenure at GitHub comes to an end.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#78

Post by rattray »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #25
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> It'd attract extreme negative attention from the rest of the government, and great fear from all paying customers that an internet mob could separate them from their code at any time. Using Microsoft as your canonical code repository is already a meaningful risk to your business. It's nice that more companies are recognizing this. They're building nice new features with their ecosystem, too, in traditional Microsof…

Right, storing your code anywhere presents risk (including self-hosted on a FOSS stack). With GitHub/MSFT, that risk includes "they decide they don't like you anymore" amongst others. How high is that risk? You'll think it's a lot higher if GitHub were to kick off ICE.

(disclaimer: I hold a small amount of MSFT stock, though this was not on my mind when I wrote my original post - thanks for the reminder).

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#79

Post by coolreader18 »

johncena33 wrote: post #53
karpierz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't people pushing their own political agenda; this is a consequence of the political stance they took. When a company takes a political stance, they should be held accountable for it.

How is protesting against police brutality is same as protesting against ICE? That sounds like partisanship. If you support one issue then you will also have to support other issues.

It's really not that different of an issue (black lives matter but Latino lives don't?); I think the word you're looking for is not partisanship but intersectionality.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#80

Post by untog »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #29
rattray wrote: post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

(Edit: Removed “people are lazy”, poor choice of words) People feel despair, hence pushing on Github instead of the political process. I’m all for unconventional leverage, but Microsoft is a trillion dollar org and has shareholders; this isn’t some VC funded dual class share startup where the founder has a blank check to do whatever they want. Edit: Can’t give up on the political process, that’s where the change happ…

Attributing this to laziness is absolutely wrong, IMO. The political process and system is deeply broken and people realise that they cannot make their voices heard through it. So they find alternatives.
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