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After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

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Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#61
post #6

Is GitHub a hug part of what ICE ... does? Personally I wouldn't want to work for a company actually detaining people, but call me terrible but I'm not sure I'd feel the same about letting them pay to host some code...

This is a genuine question. I want to immigrate to USA, but currently there is no easy way to immigrate to USA. On the contrary Canada has a fair immigration system that allowed me to stay, work and eventually be citizen. Why don't people push for a fair immigration system in USA instead of abolishing ICE? What exactly am I missing here?

Because there is a rather large disagreement on what "fair immigration" looks like, plus, if I'm being cynical, its an amazing issue to raise money on.

These days, neither party is all that stable. There are many voices trying to redefine both and the reasonable people in the middle are not being listened to. I honestly don't know the final resolution.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#62
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

(Edit: Removed “people are lazy”, poor choice of words) People feel despair, hence pushing on Github instead of the political process. I’m all for unconventional leverage, but Microsoft is a trillion dollar org and has shareholders; this isn’t some VC funded dual class share startup where the founder has a blank check to do whatever they want. Edit: Can’t give up on the political process, that’s where the change happ…

I think it's probably more that people have lost trust in the political proces and are pushing on private companies as a last resort to effect change.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#63
post #23

Doing cheap PR moves like blacking out logos or posting Twitter "support" posts from CEO accounts or announcing the end of default branches named "master" is, as I said, cheap. The real issue is dealing with the elephants in the room, such as the aforementioned ICE contract of GitHub. It is about time that corporations, with GitHub here as an example, noticed that backing this or that or another minority or "trying"…

I really dislike labeling any recognition of an issue as "cheap". It was not that long ago that any positive recognition of even gay people existing in modern media outside of farce, recognition by corporations was seen as a HUGE step forward as far as making people or concerns SEEN. Maybe some CEO's out there are all Snidely Whiplash and putting out all their messaging for free PR, but I'm not going to assume that a…

I understand the position, but nowadays Twitter is full of #BlackLivesMatter posts, pride flags can be seen commonly, all while, to bring the two most currently visible things that haven't changed, the sex/race pay gaps are still there, and Black folk are still much more likely to die during police interventions.

I guess I'm glad that the recognition and posts from CEOs is there, but posting rainbow flags and "Black Lives Matter" on Twitter has simply become fashionable now. It's possible to do that and do nothing else in order to announce a success and go, "hey, we support minorities" while ignoring problems that have people mispaid, misjudged, locked up for statistically longer, or just plain outright killed.

That's the elephant in the room I've mentioned, and unless these Twitter statistics and CEO or corporate recognition you mention translate into daily reality of these minority groups, they're not of much actual and practical use. They're not the goal, they're the means.

EDIT: in other words, if one of your Black friends gets shot "by accident" during a random police intervention - oh goodness, it's really sad, Alexa play some jazz music. But hey, #BlackLivesMatter is trending in social media, that must means that things are good for the Black folk, right?

/s

EDIT2: The word "cheap" is there because such a stunt is very far from being "expensive". It costs little to nothing, it can be done without other actions or at minimal costs, it does not require changes of management or company course or internal rules. It is, therefore, by definition, cheap.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#64
post #9
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slippery slopes are not always a fallacy, roughly the same way appeal to authority is not a fallacy when the authority is indeed an expert. Relevant: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Kbm6QnJv9dgWsPHQP/schelling-...

> when the authority is indeed an expert. can someone be a considered authority without being an expert. edit: I am using authority from the example in wikipedia "One example of the use of the appeal to authority in science dates to 1923,[20] when leading American zoologist Theophilus Painter declared, based on poor data and conflicting observations he had made,[21][22] that humans had 24 pairs of chromosomes. From t…

Parents, older siblings, managers/bosses, almost any TV personality. Also you might have someone who has a profession in the topic at hand, but isn't an expert. Like your older cousin who is a first-year Comp Sci major probably isn't the hacking/security expert you should be appealing to.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#65
post #14

What a bummer that workers are publicly demanding this, and (presumably) seeking press attention on it. I'm no fan of ICE – a very large percentage of my friends in the US are immigrants, and I generally want my country to be a welcoming one. ICE has certainly committed unethical and probably illegal acts (probably true of most federal agencies). But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a pri…

> But to expect that a _federal agency_ will be denied service from a private entity, especially for essentially political reasons, is lunacy. Um, think you've got this backwards. Private entities shouldn't have to take on anyone they don't want as customers (for whatever reason - do you have to justify who you do or don't want in your livingroom?), but publicly-funded institutions shouldn't be able to deny service o…

What about anti-discrimnation laws? Where do you stand on the issue with the baker refusing to bake a cake for the gay couple?

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#66
Corporations are people. If they don't act ethically, we can't expect people to act ethically.

Ending a contract with an agency that runs concentration camps is good. Better, though, is to not accept any contracts with any government that runs concentration camps.

Small steps are good. Big steps are better.

PS: great fear from all paying customers that run concentration camps that an internet mob could separate them from their code at any time -- sounds like a good policy to me. Not as good as "Don't be evil", but reasonably close.

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't people pushing their own political agenda; this is a consequence of the political stance they took. When a company takes a political stance, they should be held accountable for it.

How is protesting against police brutality is same as protesting against ICE? That sounds like partisanship. If you support one issue then you will also have to support other issues.

GP may have been referring to the political stand of taking on ICE as a customer. GitHub brass can pretend they're being apolitical, just as IBM did...

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#68

I guess this is the reason lot of corporates try to stay out of politics. Because once you set a precedence then people will use that as to push their own political agendas. I personally don't like the slippery slope argument since it's very lazy and justifies inaction in many cases. But at the same time when I see news like this, I just wonder how long it will take two different subgroups trying push their own confl…

I do in fact agree with you, but I'm coming from the opposite side of the spectrum.

Companies do in fact involve themselves with politics quite a bit. It's called lobbying. I do think that lobbying is the single most important threat to Democracy, in the US and everywhere else. I do wish that companies stayed out of politics in that way.

I also think that when one side is literally putting children in cages it's not a "slippery slope".

Re: After GitHub CEO backs Black Lives Matter, workers demand an end to ICE contract

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are going through a very strange and extreme period in US History. Corporations are a huge part of the political landscape. Of course workers who are powerful will demand things of their workplaces. All corporations are political. By accepting the ICE contract previously it was political. Now by reversing they would be changing sides. They were already in the political fray.

"By accepting the ICE contract previously it was political." Just a reminder that government entities like ICE are executing the current laws of the land.

That's a stretch. Many think what they are doing is not legal. And I doubt that everything they do is spelled out in law. There is a lot of policy to what happens in ICE.
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