George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter • Hacker News Board

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#581

Post by ChefboyOG » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:20 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #517

kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

This is a clear attempt to manipulate opinion, I don't know why HN leaves it up. You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again. If after watching carefully select and cut videos on a Twitter propaganda account you believe the police has a systemic issue, you're falling for the same trap. It's the same way media manipulate you…

This is a straw man argument.

If you watched 100 videos of kitchen malpractice within restaurants in which:

- The acts of malpractice had broadly consistent characteristics

- The restaurants in question were all owned under the same organizational umbrella

- That organizational umbrella had the authority and exclusive control of the US government

And then drew the conclusion that maybe there were systemic problems that lead to these remarkably consistent issues, you'd be completely rational.

As for your other comparison between this and "the media" curating street interviews, I don't see the parallels at all.

A news outlet using a random interview with a person on the street as evidence that people are "divided over climate change" is clearly manipulative. In this case, a person is saying "Police are routinely using military equipment and force tactics against US citizens in disturbing ways. Here are 700 videos of it as evidence."

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#582

Post by lazyjones » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

aqme28 wrote: post #572

lazyjones wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a clear attempt to manipulate opinion, I don't know why HN leaves it up. You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again. If after watching carefully select and cut videos on a Twitter propaganda account you believe the police has a systemic issue, you're falling for the same trap. It's the same way media manipulate you…

> You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again What about just thinking that restaurants need serious reform and accountability?

It would be stupid. No restaurant reform can prevent employees from doing something bad, unless you want to mandate robotic "employees". The sane way to react to such videos would be to confront the employers, using a lawsuit if necessary, so they can fix the situation. All required laws already exist AFAICT.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#583

Post by astura » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

piokoch wrote: post #528

kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

As a non American I am not getting this at all. In many US cities/towns sheriff is elected. In all other cases city mayor is elected. How it happens that all those mayors and sheriffs are still in the office if police brutality is such a big issue? Does this mean that people just do not care, or there is only some minority who thinks that the police is too violent and the rest is ok with that?

A Minneapolis City Councilman (who ran on a campaign of police reform) explains it pretty well here:

https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-pol...

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#584

Post by lucio » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:22 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #192

rabidrat wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the last week I have been starting to realize that what you said is true in general, and not just of protests. It seems that police inflame and instigate most of the violent situations they are involved in. We are literally paying to be abused. We shouldn't be trying to get that money back; we shouldn't even be paying it in the first place.

A 2500-year-old quote still relevant today: "When a nation hoards weapons, troubles arise from within and from without. When its leaders try to be cunning and clever, the situation spins further out of control. When they try to fix things by passing more laws, they only increase the number of outlaws." 民多利器、國家滋昏。人多伎巧、奇物滋起。法令滋彰、盜賊多有。

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#585

Post by deepersprout » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #257

deepersprout wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because police brutality is kind of a global phenomenon No it's not. Police in Europe is, on average, very kind. When they stop you, you don't have to be afraid of anything, and more often than not you stop them to ask for help, even if it's just to ask for directions.

You don't have to worry about getting killed, even though that's changing slowly [0][1], but many of them are authority abusive pieces of shit that have no place in the police. I've been stopped on my motorcycle for no reasons by officers in an unmarked car, they kept me 30 min on the road under full summer sun and didn't provide me any reason for stopping me whatsoever. "don't do crimes and the police will leave you…

You and your Dad are not statistically relevant. My experience is very different, and it is backed up by data:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...

United States is between Congo and Iraq when sorted by rate per 10 mil. people.

The first european country is way down that list.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#586

Post by throwaway_USD » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

>"the militarization and use of force tactics of US law enforcement are not a problem" then I'd like to hear why you think so given this evidence.

Just to play devils advocate, can't I conclude there is a problem without that problem being the "militarization" of the police force. In other words aren't I allowed to conclude there was a problem prior to the militarization of the police force, and really what we are seeing proliferation of video recordings that are now making us think these acts are new, when the reality is they happened in mass occurred prior to militarization of police...and as scary as it sounds accountability is increasing because of the video?

Then on the extreme end of devils advocate, lets say we all watched 100 videos that made us sick to our stomach...how many millions of police interactions have we not seen that might suggest the bad acts is a drop in the bucket compared to the overall data. Not unlike maybe a few bad actors that have looted or committed arson, or committed murder during the BLM protests, do those acts suggest the entire culture of BLM movement is tainted?

One of the things that really makes me sick about the George Floyd death which doesn't get a lot of attention is that the prosecutors/state attorneys originally swept it under the rug and refused to bring charges. Thank god for the video, even though it didn't stop the act, we all see the tragedy we see the victim we see the cop and attach names and faces...but who knows the names of the prosecutors who watched this video and said "no, nothing wrong here, no charges?" Nameless, faceless people protecting the officers behind the scene enabling offices to act any way they want knowing they will be protected...and maybe if we corrected that problem and officer didn't feel they could act in any fashion they wanted and receive protection perhaps we would see officers act a little differently in the streets.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#587

Post by saiya-jin » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:24 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #573

tartoran wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handcuffing a lifeless freshly shot body is more than enough. I’ve seen it over and over. Why is that a policy? Second, why shoot to kill and not to incapacitate? Shoot to kill is a policy. Why is that a policy? The police rule by fear. I’ve never broken the law and yet Im really affraid of cops in the US. I know I should not have a reason to but can’t help but be intimidated by their tactics, their orders, their dem…

I am completely in support of the idea that these videos show unnecessary police brutality, I have no argument with the message here. I just want to answer your question about shooting to kill vs incapacitate. The first part of the answer is that nobody should shoot anyone who they don’t reasonably believe is trying to kill them. This applies to citizens or police. Generally it is the standard applied in citizen self…

> would require training and practice that simply isn’t available to cops

Generally agree apart from this - if cops don't have training to be expert (or at least above-average good) shooters, then that's a failure. We've read tons of articles about militarization of US police. If they have budget for armored vehicles, for sure they have budget for (very cheap but quality basic) 9mm ammunition for practice.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#588

Post by amf12 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #432

DeonPenny wrote: post #65

The fact that is even possible is insane. Imagine there being over 700 videos of pilots messing up in one month, 700 crane operator mishaps in a month, 700+ food poising by a chain in a month. The also imagine you believe there's no problem. This is Ba Sing Se levels of delusion for some people.

How about 2,300 vehicular deaths a month? Or 2,300 gun deaths a month? Because those numbers have been consistent for decades. Oh, but those aren't the same thing, so they're irrelevant? That's fine, because the examples you gave (pilots, crane operators, fast food chains) also have nothing to do with one another. Not the same number of operators, not the same jobs, not the same safety systems, not the same number of…

> How about 2,300 vehicular deaths a month? Or 2,300 gun deaths a month? Because those numbers have been consistent for decades.

Those are 'real' accidents; and if some are not, like DUI, there are laws against them that are enforced. If tomorrow, society stops charging DUI offenders people would protest too.

That's not the case with police brutality. We have seen again and again the police face no consequences for their brutality. That's what the people are protesting against. If every one of these cops were appropriately fired, charged and jailed, this wouldn't be a big of an issue. That simply does not happen.

The second point being, theoretically people trust cops to keep law and order and to ensure safety. So it is rightly expected for them to have higher standard of conduct and the fact that this does not happen is a systemic failure.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#589

Post by leetcrew » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #553

cies wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe "the right not to be prosecuted for a victimless crime" should be an amendment. Then homelessness/drugs-whatevers/prostitution can no longer have laws against them. "Address the root cause", exactly, and the root cause is the unjust laws. Though cops pretty much never being found guilty for unjust use of violence is a big one too, and I wonder what law changes can solve that issue.

> the right not to be prosecuted for a victimless crime So if I'm driving drunk, then I'm not prosecuted until there's a victim? Hm...

I wouldn't necessarily say that DUI is a victimless crime. you might not hurt anyone, but you've exposed everyone on the road to excess risk, which could be argued is a type of harm. I'm not sure jail time is necessary for DUI. having your license suspended is already a severe punishment in places where you really need a vehicle to get around. requiring an interlock whenever the person is allowed to drive again also mitigates the risk to others in the future. of course, then you would have to decide what to do with people who just drive a friend's car or drive on a suspended license...

I think this might be a good example of a larger structural problem. culturally, we accept that going to a bar with friends or having a few glasses of wine at a restaurant is a reasonable thing for an adult to do. but a large portion of the US is set up in a way that bars and restaurants are not within walking distance of homes, and the public transit is poor or nonexistent. if I, a 145 lb male, have a cocktail and a glass of wine at dinner, I'm pretty likely to be above the legal limit by the time I leave. I don't do this; I either drink less or arrange a different way to get home, but I do think the combination of law, culture, and (lack of) infrastructure pushes people towards committing a crime here.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#590

Post by techolic » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

bufferoverflow wrote: post #27

dtagames wrote: post #2

I know politics isn't the usual HN topic, but I think this goes beyond politics at this point. Until I saw this list, I had no idea how out of control this situation has gotten here. I'm saddened for my country and hope that this can be a turning point for all of us.

Is it out of control though? The police has 700K members in the US. Millions of daily interactions with people of all kinds. All you could find is 400 cases from ALL the years. And I guess the claim is brutality wasn't justified in every single case. In reality there are not 400 cases on that list, and in many cases the violence was justified. I'm not saying the police doesn't do wrong, they absolutely do. We have ex…

Just imagine you or a beloved one is the victim of police brutality in one of these cases. Take a second to think about it, and see if you're still on the same ground.