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Why are there so few black people in STEM?

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Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#71

Post by neffy »

eikenberry wrote: post #40
neffy wrote: post #10

For the same reason there are so few poor whites in STEM. America's dysfunctional education funding. Make education funding federal, and have a nationwide push to have small classes and well funded schools for everybody, and this would be fixed in 10 years. As it is, rich districts pay more taxes and get better schools. Funny that.

Seems like there are 2 problems with this. First is that the federal government doesn't have the legal standing to take over the education system. I believe it would require a constitutional amendment to allow it and I don't think they'd get that passed. Secondly, I'm not sure it is such a great idea. Currently federal level education direction comes from the teachers union and you can see the fruits of its labors in…

There's not really a lot of debate about what makes for good schools. Small class sizes, and well qualified(paid) teachers. It is that simple. You can try whatever alternative educational styles you want, and it will not work in a class size of 50.

Nor does the federal government have to take over the education system to achieve this, it just has to guarantee equal funding for all students. Or the US can continue to set poor whites against poor blacks as it has now for centuries, and watch itself become increasingly uncompetitive with any country that makes a commitment to equal educational standards for all. "This used to be the greatest country in the world", etc.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#72

Post by rootusrootus »

deogeo wrote: post #68
rootusrootus wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stats on black/white/Asian college achievement makes for an uncomfortable discussion. It's okay to suggest that systemic racism is why black people don't participate in college as much as you'd expect based on their prevalence in society, but it's also okay to say that the reason Asians are over-represented is because culturally they've made it a huge priority to attain as much education as possible. Maybe we sho…

Would it also be okay to suggest Asians are over-represented because of unearned Asian privilege? What about suggesting whites are (hypothetically) over-represented because they've made attaining education a priority? Forgive me for noticing, but "one-sided" doesn't even begin to describe this debate.

> Would it also be okay to suggest Asians are over-represented because of unearned Asian privilege?

Reverse racism, as it were?

> What about suggesting whites are (hypothetically) over-represented because they've made attaining education a priority?

Well, first they'd need to be over-represented ;).

> Forgive me for noticing, but "one-sided" doesn't even begin to describe this debate.

On the contrary, there seems to be a bazillion sides to this whole discussion.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#73

Post by neffy »

rootusrootus wrote: post #55
neffy wrote: post #10

For the same reason there are so few poor whites in STEM. America's dysfunctional education funding. Make education funding federal, and have a nationwide push to have small classes and well funded schools for everybody, and this would be fixed in 10 years. As it is, rich districts pay more taxes and get better schools. Funny that.

> rich districts pay more taxes and get better schools I struggle to see how this is wrong. It's not any different than rich people buying private education, though it makes it easier for non-rich folks to try and find the cheapest place in that district so they can benefit from the well-funded schools. It seems popular to think that people should have equal opportunity, independent of any other factors. But from the…

It's a local minima in A.I. terms. If you want the global optima you have to fund everybody's education. And from the perspective of a parent, think of the consequences. If your kid is ill, do you want it treated by the best doctor on merit, or the one that could afford the biggest bribes to pass their exams? How about the nuclear reactor inspector? The CDC.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#74

Post by Ghjklov »

deogeo wrote: post #68
rootusrootus wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stats on black/white/Asian college achievement makes for an uncomfortable discussion. It's okay to suggest that systemic racism is why black people don't participate in college as much as you'd expect based on their prevalence in society, but it's also okay to say that the reason Asians are over-represented is because culturally they've made it a huge priority to attain as much education as possible. Maybe we sho…

Would it also be okay to suggest Asians are over-represented because of unearned Asian privilege? What about suggesting whites are (hypothetically) over-represented because they've made attaining education a priority? Forgive me for noticing, but "one-sided" doesn't even begin to describe this debate.

>Would it also be okay to suggest Asians are over-represented because of unearned Asian privilege?

That would be an incredibly stupid and unequivocally false thing to suggest because the odds are actually stacked against Asians, and they must work harder than most other people to achieve the same thing. Asians have earned everything they've attained in this country. They deserve whatever success they've gotten, and for that, they receive undeserved discrimination and disrespect.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#75

Post by neffy »

pessimizer wrote: post #41
CyanLite2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that the first thing people think of when it comes to explaining black behavior is that they must be poor? Not all black people are poor. Stop it with the stereotypes.

Not all black people are absent from STEM. If we're only going to talk about what all black people are or are not, we're not going to find anything useful. I feel like I have to mention that I'm a black person here.

We just want more of you in STEM is all - no scientist left behind...

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#76

Post by rootusrootus »

crooked-v wrote: post #67
rootusrootus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rich districts pay more taxes and get better schools I struggle to see how this is wrong. It's not any different than rich people buying private education, though it makes it easier for non-rich folks to try and find the cheapest place in that district so they can benefit from the well-funded schools. It seems popular to think that people should have equal opportunity, independent of any other factors. But from the…

> But from the perspective of a parent, why should I be disallowed from providing my own kids every possible advantage I can afford? Because it's bad for society, and because there's a long since established moral precedent in favor of things that may make life slightly worse for any given individual but better for a large majority of everyone. It's also worth keeping in mind that there's a massive difference between…

> Because it's bad for society

That is a very big claim. It seems just as plausible to suggest that society will in fact be collectively better off if every parent gives their kid the best possible start in life, even if some kids will miss out due to circumstance.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#77

Post by CyanLite2 »

joyj2nd wrote: post #66
CyanLite2 wrote: post #37

Occam's Razor says that they aren't a lot of black people in STEM positions because companies aren't hiring black people in STEM positions. There are plenty of black candidates applying to FAANG companies only to be rejected because "they don't fit in with the culture" or they "weren't Google-y enough", or "they couldn't write a depth-first-search algorithm in less than 2 seconds in front of a whiteboard ("white boar…

I disagree. Most companies are actually trying to INCREASE diversity, be it based on skin colour or gender. So it may actually be much EASIER to get accepted in this companies if you are black. I know in some STEM fields (not all in STEM is CS), you have MUCH MUCH higher chances to land a good job at a big company if you are female. But being female in medicine or law buys you nothing since there is no imbalance.

Of course everybody says they're TRYING to increase diversity, but none have actually DONE it. But not because there's a lack of qualified diverse candidates applying there. If they wanted to solve the problem, they could, but it's not a priority for them. Facebook grew their overall employee base by nearly 400% over the past 6 years, but their percentage of black employees only grew by 0.8%.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/12/six-years-into-diversity-rep...

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#78

Post by cullenking »

nimbius wrote: post #25

I could venture a guess, and its probably why i'll never go from my current job as a diesel mechanic to junior python programmer no matter how badly i want to: criminal record. in the US you can discriminate against employees who have any sort of criminal record. I've served jailtime for possession of cannabis, so that automatically rules me out for a lot of white-collar jobs. Black people tend to get the brunt of po…

I have never once checked a reference or performed a background check on any candidate for our now 20 person company. There are a ton of companies like mine. My guess is more than less but that’s just a hunch.

Diesel mechanic isn’t a bad career (my dad is an elevator mechanic and I still sometimes think I should have just done that), grass is always greener etc

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#79

Post by CyanLite2 »

scarface74 wrote: post #61
CyanLite2 wrote: post #37

Occam's Razor says that they aren't a lot of black people in STEM positions because companies aren't hiring black people in STEM positions. There are plenty of black candidates applying to FAANG companies only to be rejected because "they don't fit in with the culture" or they "weren't Google-y enough", or "they couldn't write a depth-first-search algorithm in less than 2 seconds in front of a whiteboard ("white boar…

For context: I am Black. I think it’s a pipeline problem. How many Blacks are graduating from top schools in STEM? I didn’t graduate from a top school at all. But that was back in the mid 90s and by choice. I just needed a degree. I knew I could get a job and be competitive with anyone being self taught in both C and a variety of assembly languages. I just got a job at Amazon under AWS Professional Services. I got a…

I'm black too, but I've had the opposite experience. Turned down at Google, Microsoft, and a few other Top N tech companies. Is it because I'm black? Probably not. But throughout all of the interviews, I've never met or seen another black engineer on the teams, let alone interviewed by one. It's hard enough to get through the hackerrank-style "gotcha" questions, but it's even harder to feel connected to an interviewer who wants to talk about their team culture in terms of rollerblading or playing sandlot volleyball.

Re: Why are there so few black people in STEM?

#80

Post by tomohawk »

neffy wrote: post #10

For the same reason there are so few poor whites in STEM. America's dysfunctional education funding. Make education funding federal, and have a nationwide push to have small classes and well funded schools for everybody, and this would be fixed in 10 years. As it is, rich districts pay more taxes and get better schools. Funny that.

Can you provide any information that shows that per pupil spending and/or small class size correlates to better outcomes?

Since the US Dept of Ed was created by Jimmy Carter, can you show positive results and benefits of this approach?

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