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GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
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Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
Given how even distributed systems used to use master/slave frequently, and some still do, and that people don't say "master branch" and typically just say "master", I think it would be surprising for someone to avoid that association if they are educated in computer sincere using those terms (which again many places do). Also, it's not reading comprehension, it's subconscious level associations that people basically…
> that people basically can't avoid This is the coddling referred to in a sibling comment. What basis do you have for thinking such misconceptions are unavoidable? This is tantamount to saying "people can never change", which flies in the face of all evidence I've seen. It seems to me entirely more likely that most folks simply don't take the time to practice decent cognitive hygiene. Surely, the parties responsible…
> Surely, the parties responsible for relabeling the default branch will see this as tacit admission of guilt on the part of GH and wield it as vindication of their views going forward.
This is an approach that is not productive, but also not applicable here as those types of actions are usually once the rest of the world has moved, and a small minority has not. This is quite early in such a transition and if anything I would expect Github to be praised for it. I certainly appreciate Github starting the process and conversation here.
Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
In "Merge to master", "master" is a proper noun, the name that was given to the branch because it is "the master branch" (adjective); just like St. Paul took his name from the adjective "paulus", meaning small. Otherwise, it would be "merge to the master" which I have never heard. It's not a costless change; all documentation would be split between that for "master" and that for "main". The cynic in me sees Embrace,…
I always assumed Git chose "master" as an analogy to audio mastering, thus a hint that the master branch should be the final result of "mixing" other branches. Maybe that's reading too much into it though.
That said, both origin and practical use have relevancy here.
Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
And this changes what exactly? Its derivation doesn't change its use as a noun in the common use. Even if it was an adjective, you act as if that magically excludes it from being associated with the master/slave distributed systems reference, but it's still a CS term at the end of the day and I fail to see how there would not be a subconscious association there. > Exactly, making things different is effectively a pot…
A proper noun and a common noun are grammatically different and easily distinguishable. Same for an adjective and a noun. This is why my original comment was specifically about reading comprehension. I don't believe there's any gain at all to achieve in terms of societal good, therefore any possible damage is going to be greater than zero. I am ready to be called a racist or fascist for this, which would be quite iro…
The only thing I can say then is to look to psych research, implicit bias, and biases in decision making studies. The conclusions there clearly point the opposite direction. I'll drop one such example to start[1]
> I am ready to be called a racist or fascist for this
People walk into these assuming this hostility, but if you want such hostility to change, it's a two way street. It's been well established we are all a little racist, ironically here thanks to ingrained biases such as the one we are discussing. What matters is that you're trying to fight against those tendencies, learning, and correcting where you can. No one is asking for perfection. When people bring in hostility into these conversations though is where that then becomes interpreted as a choice, not just subconscious.
> my grandparents and great-grandparents had several unpleasant interactions with the Italian fascist party
I don't see why we are still trying to use this line of argument. There are plenty of sexist women, racist BIPOC to other races, etc. Being of or having been related to X can help statistically at a macro level, but does not magically stop an individual from developing any of those ideas.
Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#75Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
So your gripe is that people loose the context when its obvious what is meant, yeah?
I see what you did there, but I still cannot understand your question. I am not bothered by common English spelling mistakes, if that's what you were asking.
My hypothesis there (that most people bothered by this change WOULD be bothered by the spelling mistakes) doesn’t apply to you since you are applying a consistent approach to contextual interpretation. My guess could be quite wrong.
Here’s a question along similar lines: the word “niggardly” is a synonym of “stingy”, but through an etymological accident is almost a homophone of a very charged word. Do you also think that “niggardly” is a word worth keeping around? Would you use it while talking with or referring to a black person? It’s more archaic than “master”, so it’s not an equivalent situation, but the overtones strike me as being similar.
This is a genuine question in the spirit of curiosity. There’s both a logical and emotional/visceral component to many words we use, and the overlap is not usually a problem. I’m trying to better understand how people evaluate a charged word’s usefulness in communication. If “master” is charged—maybe not for you personally, but potentially for people you’re talking with—and “main” serves just as well, what’s the issue with swapping it out?
Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it's triggering underlying emotional trauma, then there's still unhealed/unprocessed trauma; rightfully so, though "actions speak louder than words" seems oddly fitting here.
Two things: 1. Where did I say anything about emotional trauma? 2. Even if that was the case (for most it is not as far as I can tell), I am surprised to hear an argument for "ah yes, let's not decrease emotional trauma if we can for low/no cost".
How about decreasing the emotional trauma by actually helping people heal, so they can be calm and not have to fear police brutality or a police state etc, to implement accountability and integrity in our systems? And in another reply I made I suggested that coddling people makes them and us weaker as a society, and allows worse consequences to grow. Arguably doing "low/no cost" things is lazy and procrastinatory, especially when it's relating to something unreasonable or incorrect like associating master-slave in programming to master-slave in human slavery; yes, an unreasonable request not given into by a child being unreasonable will likely lead to a tantrum.
Not responding would be bad and further traumatizing, responding with thought and an actual plan would be deep and powerful, giving into people's unreasonable requests or for-profit company opportunism to look good doing something shallow because people are misinterpreting language is something else.
In another comment I made: "Coddling will only lead to greater problems later, though yes, it certainly is a gesture showing respect — because of the improper associating, trigger it is causing an unreasonable mob. Coddling people makes them and society weaker, it doesn't strengthen them - it turns their anger into something other than critical thinking. Large for-profit corporations who are happy to jump to an easy decision like this seem to be more opportunists than leaders to make a statement like you said in response." - that statement I was referring to is: 'If you read "master branch" and think of slavery, you have reading comprehension issues that won't be fixed by renaming the branch.'
Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
To me when people are so angered that they can't separate contexts of language use, it's a signal or canary that things are out of control. And then reasonable people fold to requested or demanded change, like giving into a child rewarding them for something not reasonable, re-enforcing the illogical thought behaviour - doing it because it's easier to make satisfy a few angry, unreasonable people (perhaps a mob) who…
Why do you assume this is driven by anger and that the worries here are "coddling" and a "weaker society"? Why can't this simply be "hey, that term has some serious historical baggage and it doesn't sit right with some people, why not change it? As a white person, the term "slave" in distributed systems always made me feel that way. Not as much for master and whitelist/blacklist personally, but I see no harm in trans…
Do we dumb down our language to appeal to every less capable person's abilities? How large or small of a group size to we appeal to? How do you determine that?
So let me get this straight, you're wanting to switch away from master-slave in the context of programming - and now you're wanting me or "us" to stop using the words coddling, triggering, and anger - arguably because you're creating a strawman argument to defend? Is instead that you're simply just not understanding fully what I am saying, like the people misassociating master-slave to human slavery, and so I need to arguably simplify my arguments simply because it "doesn't sit right" with you? Do you see the slippery slope insanity of your process yet?
What does "not sitting right with some people" mean to you? Are you suggesting that anything that "doesn't sit right with some people" we should just change? When do we stop, who's the arbiter of it - you? Or maybe instead we hold integrity for proper language use, people developing emotion regulation, and helping people heal past and ongoing trauma by fixing the structural-systemic sources of their trauma, fear-anger? Explaining to them "master-slave in programming isn't referring to human slavery, and X, Y, Z is what we're going to do to help fix up this fucked up system."
Do you see logical fallacy and potential irony in your statements? And maybe that "slave" in distributed systems always made you feel a certain way is you in fact not differentiating, wrongly connecting, the term to human slavery - attached to it? There are practices of mindfulness like meditation that can allow you sit with and analyze and differentiate by learning to detach to let those improper associations/attachments and the emotions they stir to settle, to not come up - so you don't react and then you refine and hone your sharpness of associations. Do you or have you ever had a mindfulness practice?
Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Two things: 1. Where did I say anything about emotional trauma? 2. Even if that was the case (for most it is not as far as I can tell), I am surprised to hear an argument for "ah yes, let's not decrease emotional trauma if we can for low/no cost".
What are you referring to then regarding "subconscious level associations that people basically can't avoid"? A subconscious association, if using reason, critical thinking, would separate master-slave in the context of programming vs. human slavery. If they are reacting to it, rather than responding, it's emotional - not reasonable based in logic; you probably can't tell because it's subtle, subconscious and not bla…
Sounds great, even better for sure! Let's do both! At your day job (if you're in the tech world), which do you have more control over?
> A subconscious association, if using reason, critical thinking,
This is now how subconscious/unconscious biases work, you're again skipping right into "but just logic out of it". People don't react to it with some emotional or anger emotion in the moment, they engrain the association subconsciously in their head, and you have to take massive effort to catch yourself with this. An effort that would be far more than changing the word, and one that tech companies are also trying to work on generally with implicit bias trainings recently.
This is focused on sexism but discusses implicit bias, the training, and its flaws in depth: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-...
Most implicit bias trainings at tech companies today are targeting the same things. While the effects of said trainings are muddy to say the least, the theory behind them is well agreed upon and studied.
I'll leave the generalized psych research to you, but here's an example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/
Re: GitHub wil change default branch name from 'master' to 'main'
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why do you assume this is driven by anger and that the worries here are "coddling" and a "weaker society"? Why can't this simply be "hey, that term has some serious historical baggage and it doesn't sit right with some people, why not change it? As a white person, the term "slave" in distributed systems always made me feel that way. Not as much for master and whitelist/blacklist personally, but I see no harm in trans…
Once again re: "white good, black bad" - that's language differentiation issue that's talking about colour, not race. The solution is to help people heal from past and ongoing reasons why they may be unreasonable triggered by those terms, by fixing the actual fucking problem instead of quelling some emotion in a very shallow way. Do we dumb down our language to appeal to every less capable person's abilities? How lar…
> and now you're wanting me or "us" to stop using the words coddling, triggering, and anger
It's ironic this followed by accusing me of a straw man while doing that quite liberally to what I said. I said nothing of the words, I am referring to your line of argument. Those words are simply the typical ones that are often signifiers of the same argument which people have had to waste time on again and again instead of addressing the actual issue here, which I mentioned at length at this post and the parent but you didn't address at all.