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GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

zdnet.com

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Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#181

Post by tchaffee »

cameronbrown wrote: post #160
tchaffee wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without real evidence it causes harm to people Here is evidence that microagressions cause psychological harm: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749... . It's easy to find more where that came from. > when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others. Also easy to find black people who are offended by these terms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/

You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled.

> You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions.

It isn't a massive leap. Kermit A. Crawford, Ph.D talks about these specific terms and that they are microagressions in this presentation: https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%2020....

You can find sources going all the way back to the 1970s talking about these terms and how they relate to racism. It's only a massive leap if you have not done the homework and if you have not talked to black colleagues in our industry about what they consider to be microagressions.

> Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled.

You are moving the goal posts. You said you don't care to "have newspeak forced on me without real evidence". Then when presented with scholarly studies and real evidence of psychological damage, you claim the evidence is not good enough.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#182

Post by Rochus »

dang wrote: post #178
Rochus wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a self-righteous person you are.

If you attack another user like this on HN, we will ban you, regardless of how wrong they are or how right you are or how wrong you feel they are or how right you feel you are. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23519070 was already over the line. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Then please delete it. I have no delete button. You have already deleted my original answer to which the fellow made an unobjective comment against my integrity. As it stands now, a wrong impression about the course of the conversation is created. Therefore please also delete https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23519104.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#183

Post by tchaffee »

drdeca wrote: post #173
tchaffee wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think this refutes the idea that the metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race It would be far more accurate to say this refutes the idea that the original metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race. US history is full of stories where that original meaning was extended to black people themselves. The metaphorical associations have been usef…

I don't mean to suggest that the ideas did not interact at any point. But I think it would be incorrect to say that the metaphorical associations of "black" which are present in things like "blacklist" and such, "come from" things based on the idea of "race". To talk about what something "comes from" is to talk about its origins, what it originated from.

That's fair to consider. However, we should also consider usage over time and popularity and the origins of what made the usage so much more popular at specific points in history. The origins of a rarely used word are far less interesting than when that word all of a sudden became very popular a hundred years later. Or perhaps ten years from now, why the word so quickly faded from usage.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#185

Post by cameronbrown »

tchaffee wrote: post #181
cameronbrown wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled.

> You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. It isn't a massive leap. Kermit A. Crawford, Ph.D talks about these specific terms and that they are microagressions in this presentation: https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%2020... . You can find sources going all the way back to the 1970s talking about these terms and how they relate to racism. It's only a m…

> You are moving the goal posts.

A reasonable statement, however I don't consider one paper to be enough evidence for restructuring the entire English language to avoid white/black, light/dark concepts. Not to mention academia is a massive political bubble which is clearly influencing the social sciences right now.

We're clearly not going to see eye to eye here - but I wish you a good day.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#186

Post by qbaqbaqba »

tchaffee wrote: post #140
Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? By basic knowledge of the English language. Terms like "black market", "black death", "black tuesday", etc. etc. By the expressions like "looking at things in black and white". It is a part of language, it has nothing to do with race. These colors are used in the same way in other languages of other countries that don't even have racial slavery…

It sure was convenient that both "black" in English and "niger" in Latin meant "evil" during times of dehumanizing and enslaving others based on the color of their skin. Basic knowledge of the English language also shows us that the word black does have to do with race. It means something for sure to black people. The word black is both a personal identity around race, and it is often used to mean "evil" or "bad" in…

It's really funny how you fail to realize that "slave" comes from "Slav".

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#187

Post by [deleted] »

qbaqbaqba wrote: post #186
tchaffee wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure was convenient that both "black" in English and "niger" in Latin meant "evil" during times of dehumanizing and enslaving others based on the color of their skin. Basic knowledge of the English language also shows us that the word black does have to do with race. It means something for sure to black people. The word black is both a personal identity around race, and it is often used to mean "evil" or "bad" in…

It's really funny how you fail to realize that "slave" comes from "Slav".

[deleted]

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#188

Post by qbaqbaqba »

hintymad wrote: post #162
lallysingh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? The new names actually describe what they do. The reason it may seem ridiculous is that racism is very, very deep in American culture. The country's culture goes back hundreds of years and is still slowly working on being less so. Here's an example: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/05/11/310708342...

Actually, you're a racist to the bone because everything you see is "very very deep" racism. You turn everyday words into labels that divide people. You just can't see that etymology of a word can have nothing to do with race. You probably can't see that the pain of our black brothers and sisters may, just may, also have come from poverty, prejudice, or in general just class struggles. You're real racist because you…

People here are extremely americacentric.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#189

Post by tchaffee »

cameronbrown wrote: post #185
tchaffee wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. It isn't a massive leap. Kermit A. Crawford, Ph.D talks about these specific terms and that they are microagressions in this presentation: https://www.appic.org/Portals/0/2018%20Conference/APPIC%2020... . You can find sources going all the way back to the 1970s talking about these terms and how they relate to racism. It's only a m…

> You are moving the goal posts. A reasonable statement, however I don't consider one paper to be enough evidence for restructuring the entire English language to avoid white/black, light/dark concepts. Not to mention academia is a massive political bubble which is clearly influencing the social sciences right now. We're clearly not going to see eye to eye here - but I wish you a good day.

> restructuring the entire English language

That's a strawman. No one is restructuring the entire English language. There is a small list of words used in technology that companies are changing to more accurate words. "denylist" and "allowlist" are clearer in purpose and intent than "blacklist".

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#190

Post by [deleted] »

jb0x168 wrote: post #164
idiocratic wrote: post #133

I'm a very anti-racist and anti-fascist person. I'm in favour of removing slavers and white supremacists statues. But these silly debates in the tech world makes me cringe a little and I wish our community was different. Isn't it of little importance how a branch is named? Let's focus on politics, on inclusion, on essential debates that our societies need to improve and let's not waste our energies changing stupid li…

Just curious: are you also a member of one of the groups impacted by these terms?

[deleted]
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