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GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

zdnet.com

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Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#151

Post by drdeca »

tchaffee wrote: post #145
drdeca wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think either term has the etymology tracing back to referring to a person’s race.

The word black and its etymology has nothing to do with race?

Well, the etymology of the word “black” is traced back to reconstruction in Proto-Germanic “ blakaz” (“burned”), and proto-indo-European “, thought to mean "to burn, gleam, shine, flash".

And these of course are not based on the idea of “race” (which I think is a more recent idea).

But I was talking about the use of the word “black” as a negative thing, such as in “blacklist”.

Etymologyonline.com says “Meaning "fierce, terrible, wicked" is from late 14c. Figurative senses often come from the notion of "without light," moral or spiritual.”

I think this refutes the idea that the metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race.

You say “nothing to do with”. This phrasing seems open to interpretation. Some might say that everything has “something to do with” everything else. Supposing that you agree that the etymology of the word “black” “has nothing to do with” the idea of being a bad cook, then sure.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#152

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

tchaffee wrote: post #150
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re essentializing races. First - how do you know first hand that any of these people care? Second - why would it be a 1:1 correspondence that simply being a certain ethnicity means you hold a certain opinion? And beyond the essentialism, you’re arguing for a set of actions and policies that infantilizes and victimizes ethnicities. Not to mention, polarizes everyone involved in the discussion.

> First - how do you know first hand that any of these people care? Because I talked to them and they told me. > Why would it be a 1:1 correspondence that simply being a certain ethnicity means you hold a certain opinion? Where was that claimed? That's a strawman. > you’re arguing for a set of actions and policies that infantilizes and victimizes ethnicities. Source? Do you have some studies that show these specific…

> Because I talked to them and they told me.

That's precisely why I'm saying you're generalizing entire races (not just black people either, which is even weirder that you claim all minorities are ravaged by "microaggressions") based on a sample.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#153

Post by tchaffee »

drdeca wrote: post #151
tchaffee wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word black and its etymology has nothing to do with race?

Well, the etymology of the word “black” is traced back to reconstruction in Proto-Germanic “ blakaz” (“burned”), and proto-indo-European “ , thought to mean "to burn, gleam, shine, flash". And these of course are not based on the idea of “race” (which I think is a more recent idea). But I was talking about the use of the word “black” as a negative thing, such as in “blacklist”. Etymologyonline.com says “Meaning "fier…

> I think this refutes the idea that the metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race

It would be far more accurate to say this refutes the idea that the original metaphorical associations of the word “black” come from associations with race. US history is full of stories where that original meaning was extended to black people themselves.

The metaphorical associations have been useful for over 200 years to a society that maintains systemic racism against black people.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#154

Post by cameronbrown »

tchaffee wrote: post #120
cameronbrown wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terms have nothing to do with race.

Take away the historical context of the words and how do you know which list is the denylist and which list is the allowlist? "blacklist" first started becoming popular during widespread slavery of Africans for European colonies. If you want to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it sure does help to have the word "black" mean "evil". If you are a black American, the word black does mean a lot to you for sure…

The origins do not have anything to do with race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%2....

I don't live in America, I don't care about the context there, I don't care to have newspeak forced on me without real evidence it causes harm to people of colour, when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#155

Post by tchaffee »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #152
tchaffee wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First - how do you know first hand that any of these people care? Because I talked to them and they told me. > Why would it be a 1:1 correspondence that simply being a certain ethnicity means you hold a certain opinion? Where was that claimed? That's a strawman. > you’re arguing for a set of actions and policies that infantilizes and victimizes ethnicities. Source? Do you have some studies that show these specific…

> Because I talked to them and they told me. That's precisely why I'm saying you're generalizing entire races (not just black people either, which is even weirder that you claim all minorities are ravaged by "microaggressions") based on a sample.

> That's precisely why I'm saying you're generalizing entire races

No, your question was "how do you know first hand that any of these people care?"

I know that any of these people care, and first hand, because they told me. That's the opposite of your claim that I'm generalizing.

> you claim all minorities are ravaged by "microaggressions"

Another strawman. I never said that. You still have not provided a source that supports your claim about that these specific actions and policies infantilizes at least some people.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#156

Post by cameronbrown »

danharaj wrote: post #125
whb07 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indentured servants, serfs like those from Russia etc. The only society/culture to put an end to slavery has been the Western ideals.

Slavery is still practiced in the United States.

Where?

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#157

Post by AnimalMuppet »

cs02rm0 wrote: post #53
there_the_and wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. This is more like a swear word. No one would expect that calling it the "fuck" branch would be OK. Just because more people are OK with "master" doesn't change the fact that it bothers other people who are just trying to code. This isn't hard to understand.

Master isn't a swear word. This isn't hard to understand.

Not a swear word, exactly, but some find it genuinely offensive.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#158

Post by tchaffee »

cameronbrown wrote: post #154
tchaffee wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take away the historical context of the words and how do you know which list is the denylist and which list is the allowlist? "blacklist" first started becoming popular during widespread slavery of Africans for European colonies. If you want to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it sure does help to have the word "black" mean "evil". If you are a black American, the word black does mean a lot to you for sure…

The origins do not have anything to do with race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%2... . I don't live in America, I don't care about the context there, I don't care to have newspeak forced on me without real evidence it causes harm to people of colour, when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.

> without real evidence it causes harm to people

Here is evidence that microagressions cause psychological harm: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749.... It's easy to find more where that came from.

> when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.

Also easy to find black people who are offended by these terms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#159

Post by soneil »

cycloptic wrote: post #83
derefr wrote: post #16

I always understood a VCS “master” branch to be in reference to “master” records / the “mastering” process of audio mixing, which in turn is a use of a sense of the verb “to master” akin to “to master one’s courage”—not conveying dominance, but rather the reaching of an apex in skill. If you’re in the market for a replacement that keeps the metaphorical power, though, I might suggest having a “mother” branch. “Mother…

>in reference to “master” records / the “mastering” process of audio mixing That analogy doesn't really make sense, because audio mastering is more like cutting a release branch. The way git uses it is more equivalent to "trunk" in SVN.

I've always preferred trunk. We branch off a trunk - branching off a master always seemed like a weird mix of analogies.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#160

Post by cameronbrown »

tchaffee wrote: post #158
cameronbrown wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The origins do not have anything to do with race: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklisting#:~:text=Origins%2... . I don't live in America, I don't care about the context there, I don't care to have newspeak forced on me without real evidence it causes harm to people of colour, when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others.

> without real evidence it causes harm to people Here is evidence that microagressions cause psychological harm: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/174569161982749... . It's easy to find more where that came from. > when all I actually see is white people being offended on behalf of others. Also easy to find black people who are offended by these terms. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6148600/

You've made the massive leap that the words blacklist/whitelist are microaggressions. Not to mention the science of microaggressions is not even remotely settled.
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