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Julian Assange in Limbo

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Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#41

Post by class4behavior »

While I don't really like JA, tend not to trust him, and disagree with a lot of his choices, it is unquestionable that he suffered a lot of injustice; while the public turned on him and continues to fall for simplified coverage of all matters involving him. The latest example, I believe, was the report on his life at the embassy and how he received the email archive in 2016.

[1] is the popular CNN version, while a week earlier El Pais reported [2] very differently on the very same material. And that still doesn't address CNN's suspicious depiction and emphasis of the evil hackers (German CCC members) who visited JA.

That reminds me, since the ECHR or CJEU—I don't remember which one—ruled that you can't sentence a person to prison forever, wouldn't it be inhumane to extradite someone when the potential degree of penalty is over 150 years?

[1]: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/15/politics/assange-embassy-...

[2]: https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/09/inenglish/15626...

[3]: https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/07/15/on-cnns-wikileaks-excl...

[4]: https://shadowproof.com/2019/07/15/cnn-twists-ecuador-embass...

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#42

Post by deathgrips »

fit2rule wrote: post #16
runawaybottle wrote: post #13

I forget. Anyone know why we’re treating Julian Assange like the worst criminal that ever existed? “ Those two shootings were a thousand times repeated, though the reports were rare in admitting that the victims were civilians. More usually, the dead were automatically identified as ‘terrorists’ caught in the act, regardless of evidence to the contrary. ” Here’s an argument against Leetcode. There are real patterns i…

Because he revealed evidence of one of the worst crimes committed by humanity in the last 100 years? 4 million innocent people murdered in illegal wars is a lot of blood on the hands of the American people. And, we all know how much they hate to be embarrassed by such things ..

>4 million innocent people murdered in illegal wars

This phrase has always bugged me. How do you carry out a 100% legal war? War is by its very nature an uprooting of the normal system where we resolve conflicts in a peaceful and organized fashion.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#43

Post by belorn »

jedberg wrote: post #23
MiroF wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assange leaked documents that he had to illegally acquire first (either with help or without, but either way he was in possession of stolen goods). You can't get whistleblower protection for leaking information you didn't have legal access to. Should we charge the journalists who distributed Snowden's leaks as well? This seems like making a distinction to draw a line between the two, but I am missing the explanatio…

> Should we charge the journalists who distributed Snowden's leaks as well? We don't need to, we know who their source was (Snowden). If Assange wants to claim he's a journalist, that's fine, but then he either needs to accept the consequences of protecting his sources, or out his sources. > but I am missing the explanation for why this distinction has moral import. It's a question of responsibility. When a journalis…

Journalism source protection under EU does not look kind to forcing journalist to out sources. The European Court of Human Rights have already ruled against the United Kingdom High Court on a case where UK tried to demand journalist to out sources. It is in a very bad style and not very civilized to go after journalists and demand that they out their sources.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#44

Post by deathgrips »

jariel wrote: post #28
us0r wrote: post #4

> After long research, his team of 120 counterintelligence officers hadn’t been able to find a single person, among the thousands of American agents and secret sources in Afghanistan and Iraq, who could be shown to have died because of the disclosures. Sounds like the NSA who couldn't point to a single instance of stopping any type of terrorist attack/operation despite collecting anything they could get their hands o…

"Sounds like the NSA who couldn't point to a single instance of stopping any type of terrorist attack/operation despite collecting anything they could get their hands on." This is kind of a misrepresentation of the situation. Manning leaked mostly diplomatic cables, the contents of which he was unaware of, thereby harming his whistleblower credentials. The contents were not what we would regard as 'intelligence infor…

>What's far more interesting about this case, is the fact that the press used to be in love with Assange, and now they hate him. I wonder what caused them to turn.

He published Clinton's emails. After that he was no longer on the same "team" as American journalists.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#45

Post by runawaybottle »

deathgrips wrote: post #42
fit2rule wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he revealed evidence of one of the worst crimes committed by humanity in the last 100 years? 4 million innocent people murdered in illegal wars is a lot of blood on the hands of the American people. And, we all know how much they hate to be embarrassed by such things ..

>4 million innocent people murdered in illegal wars This phrase has always bugged me. How do you carry out a 100% legal war? War is by its very nature an uprooting of the normal system where we resolve conflicts in a peaceful and organized fashion.

I think the suggestion was that the actual war was illegal, mostly proven by now, there was no basis for it.

As for what happens in war, we can take a look at what Geneva convention tried, but that’s not the debate.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#46

Post by AndrewBissell »

jariel wrote: post #28
us0r wrote: post #4

> After long research, his team of 120 counterintelligence officers hadn’t been able to find a single person, among the thousands of American agents and secret sources in Afghanistan and Iraq, who could be shown to have died because of the disclosures. Sounds like the NSA who couldn't point to a single instance of stopping any type of terrorist attack/operation despite collecting anything they could get their hands o…

"Sounds like the NSA who couldn't point to a single instance of stopping any type of terrorist attack/operation despite collecting anything they could get their hands on." This is kind of a misrepresentation of the situation. Manning leaked mostly diplomatic cables, the contents of which he was unaware of, thereby harming his whistleblower credentials. The contents were not what we would regard as 'intelligence infor…

> That gigabyte of private information was released and there wasn't a single scandal of it shows how tight the operation was, moreover any reading of the cables demonstrates how well the US diplomatic corps were actually doing their jobs.

No, it just shows how subservient to U.S. foreign policy the American press is (they did not undertake any widespread publishing of embarrassing details from the cables), and how uninterested and easily misled the American public is about our government's actions overseas.

> What's far more interesting about this case, is the fact that the press used to be in love with Assange, and now they hate him.

The American press was never that in love with Assange -- the smear jobs and carping about his character started very soon after the Manning leaks, as Cockburn points out. The nail in the coffin was publishing the DNC emails, which despite containing a great deal of newsworthy details and indications of corruption, became a convenient scapegoat for Clinton's loss in the 2016 election and are now viewed almost exclusively in that light. (I think some legitimate criticisms can be lodged against Assange for electioneering in his timing of the leaks, but Clinton did joke about assassinating him and did all she could to put him in prison, so ....)

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#47

Post by vkou »

class4behavior wrote: post #8
vkou wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he being accused of disclosing information that got someone killed? Or of assisting a hacker? If he's not accused of doing the first, then this is hardly relevant to his case.

This is most certainly relevant. It may not be proof, but it's notable evidence; and not the only one.

It's not evidence. Whether or not someone was hurt because of a hacking conspiracy has exactly zero bearing on the guilt of the parties involved.

It has some bearing on the sentencing.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#48

Post by deathgrips »

runawaybottle wrote: post #13

I forget. Anyone know why we’re treating Julian Assange like the worst criminal that ever existed? “ Those two shootings were a thousand times repeated, though the reports were rare in admitting that the victims were civilians. More usually, the dead were automatically identified as ‘terrorists’ caught in the act, regardless of evidence to the contrary. ” Here’s an argument against Leetcode. There are real patterns i…

The feds don't like him because he leaks their secrets. The Republicans don't like him because he makes our military look bad. The Democrats don't like him because he leaked Clinton's emails. There's no longer anyone in America willing to stop his incarceration so he can pester their political rivals.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#49

Post by class4behavior »

asjw wrote: post #17
class4behavior wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is most certainly relevant. It may not be proof, but it's notable evidence; and not the only one.

If I put someone's life in danger and then that person doesn't die it's still a crime. We are in an historical moment when transmitting the COVID-19 to someone else could cost you lifetime jail, I don't think they will go easy on revealing the secret identities of operatives.

You talking past my point. Besides, the US government doesn't tolerate any kind of hindrance to its operations or operatives. They will cry foul like no one else and hunt you down without any regard to any foreign or international laws. Story telling is the easiest part.

As for covid, that's simply a false equivalence.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#50

Post by deathgrips »

runawaybottle wrote: post #45
deathgrips wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>4 million innocent people murdered in illegal wars This phrase has always bugged me. How do you carry out a 100% legal war? War is by its very nature an uprooting of the normal system where we resolve conflicts in a peaceful and organized fashion.

I think the suggestion was that the actual war was illegal, mostly proven by now, there was no basis for it. As for what happens in war, we can take a look at what Geneva convention tried, but that’s not the debate.

This implies that there are political motives that justify killing thousands to millions of soldiers and civilians. Can you or anyone here provide a non-exhaustive list of these justifiable motives?
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