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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#661

Post by Auracle »

dickjocke wrote: post #626
growlist wrote: post #586

Does anyone think this would not have been crushed without mercy if the protestors were 'white supremacists'? Serious question. The irony is that if these AZs were permitted it could give said segregationists exactly what they had been after for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_Nati... Like this scenario in 2016 that ended when the last far-right occupiers of a national wildlife refugee left after 6 weeks?.

That was the news story of the month. This has barely been talked about in most of the media.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#662

Post by rayhendricks »

Walked though it yesterday, wearing a mask. The majority of people are also wearing masks and seem to be peaceful. Mostly a bunch of protestors and people milling about. There was one argument right by the speaker, but it didn’t look violent. Here is a link to my video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/8kktcXopLDdFKbQP9 IMO it will last a month or two then engine will get bored and it will fizzle.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#663

Post by dragonwriter »

AnHonestComment wrote: post #653
jakelazaroff wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why we tolerate the police for a few hundred years now - on occasion they cause violence that's predictable and can be influenced. The point of these protests is that the violence is not occasional. It is endemic , and attempts to stop it stretch back centuries . It has persisted across the country, under both progressive and conservative politicians, despite many, many attempts to eliminate it. If the viol…

Police are safer than cars, by an order of magnitude. The only violence I’ve seen from police that doesn’t seem like an anomaly is violence that protestors incited by starting a conflict with the police. So, empirically, it seems like the violence is occasional except when you go asking for it and the protestors just have a problem with authority and society at large. It’s why their complaints are big on individual s…

> Police are safer than cars,

For whom and per...what? Encounter? Mile traveled with them?

> The only violence I’ve seen from police that doesn’t seem like an anomaly is violence that protestors incited by starting a conflict with the police.

That suggests to me that either your perception of provocation or of anomaly is skewed (or that “anomaly” is used in the software sense of “behavior out of line with spec” rather than the more general sense of “behavior out of line with what is normal”.)

> So, empirically,

You just recounted what is, by the terms used, your subjective impression, and termed your conclusion built on that (which go far beyond what is justified even if that impression was undisputed fact) “empirical”.

That’s...not what that word means.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#664

Post by noobaccount »

HeroOfAges wrote: post #634
cwkoss wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past week SPD has lied about: - "Incendiary devices" being thrown at officers: it was a candle - as can be seen by the sticker visible in SPD's own tweets - Businesses being 'extorted': appears SPD leadership got a false report of this from a local alt-right personality and spread it in their press briefing. - People checking IDs for entry: streamers have been trying to find anyone on the ground who can substa…

Why can't people counter protest?

They can. Public officials spreading damaging falsehoods may violate the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments. I believe that is the issue being discussed.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#666

Post by ogre_codes »

krzyk wrote: post #652
darkerside wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are protests against the police, and the police don't like that? Simplest answer I can see

Use of force by police in those protests results in more protests. So the simplest answer is actually: protesters benefit from police using force. (because they'll get more protesters, more media coverage etc.)

> So the simplest answer is actually: protesters benefit from police using force.

I'm struggling to see the equivalency here. In one case you have cops, getting paid to protect people and property and ignoring that responsibility (or actually participating in mayhem) at no cost to themselves. Lots of incentive to act poorly, little personal consequence.

On the other hand you have protestors who might collectively benefit from police using force at the cost of taking a club to the head or pepper spray to the face.

Not seeing how the two are comparable.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#667

Post by dragonwriter »

cwkoss wrote: post #587
pjc50 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She said that, but is it actually true? Besides, one of the long list of complaints is that police are often useless or worse at dealing with rapes; Minneapolis PD had a massive backlog of untested rape kits. (edit: correctly gendered the police chief, hadn't bothered looking at the tweet)

In the past week SPD has lied about: - "Incendiary devices" being thrown at officers: it was a candle - as can be seen by the sticker visible in SPD's own tweets - Businesses being 'extorted': appears SPD leadership got a false report of this from a local alt-right personality and spread it in their press briefing. - People checking IDs for entry: streamers have been trying to find anyone on the ground who can substa…

> A small handful of people have been kicked out by being swarmed by a crowd and told to leave (and some more colorful language) without violence.

This sounds like at least an implicit threat of imminent violence, without disputing the rest of your description.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#668

Post by rideontime »

pera wrote: post #609
drevil-v2 wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle police chief said on TV [1] that "Rapes, robberies and all sorts of violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to [them]." Doesn’t sound very utopian [1] https://twitter.com/mrandyngo/status/1271291958296604675?s=2...

FYI the Seattle Police Department retracted previous claims yesterday: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-area-prote... This is not the first time Chief Best and the SPD made things up during these events, and in fact they have a long history of misbehavior: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2011/... Note that in your video Best is not being too explicit on where exactly those crim…

Note that Andy Ngo himself, author of the tweet linked in the grandparent, helped spread the false claims that SPD has retracted: https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1270820367573999616

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#669

Post by Auracle »

deathgrips wrote: post #177
mmcgaha wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

defunding police pensions is a bit much.

Don't you think qualified immunity is a bit much? Take the pensions and subtract the money that would have been awarded in lawsuits and it probably evens out to $0.

Retroactively taking retirement funds from people that were expecting them is wrong. Even if 99% of the police deserved it, it would still be wrong.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#670

Post by asdff »

sterlind wrote: post #343
ashtonkem wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has never been to Seattle, I am shocked by how bad your police department appears to be. Even the LAPD behaved ... well, less bad from what I’d heard. Flash bangs? Those are for assaulting buildings, not crowd control.

I mean, it's par for the course across America during protests. It's important to remember "less than lethal" doesn't mean safe - I saw a photo of a dude who's eye was.. exploded by a tear gas canister. Forget where that was but it was not Seattle. If anything's weird about the Seattle PD, it could be they remember the 1999 WTO protests and want to crush them this time. But overall they all seem to be around the same…

I don't know why we have these less than lethal rounds if they are proven time again to be so damaging. Paintball guns leave welts and bruises just fine and don't maim you in the process. Take 30 paintballs to the upper body and you will be begging for mercy.

The complaint from police, especially with tasers too, boils down to that this needs to be strong enough to stop someone on meth with hulk strength. Police already have much more effective tools for this: Horse cop and lasso.

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