Private prisons have an obligation through shareholders and ownership to maximize earnings/profit. They also have inherently less oversight than an institution that is controlled by the state. Given statement #1 they have a perverse incentive to acquire more inmates and keep inmates longer confined due to receiving govt. funding for their operations every day an inmate is housed. This also includes serving the cheapest possible food and providing little to no benefits. That being said state prisons are no shining beacon of enlightenment and prisoner reform.
California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
71–80 of 130 posts
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree, private prisons are a moral hazard by nature. Pointing out a separate failure by state prisons is a straw man I think.
This is absolutely not straw man. Just because one changes prisons from "private" prisons to "state" prisons doesn't change the fundamental issue of putting humans in cages.
What would you say is the fundamental issue with putting humans in cages?
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The measure, which passed the California legislature last month, does not apply to privately owned prisons operated and staffed by the state corrections agency. It does seeem suspicious...
Is a "privately owned prison operated and staffed by the state corrections agency" just a rented building?
Technically? But a prison is not just any old building. If the inmate population decreases, the owner's couldn't easily turn it into a strip mall, for example. It still means private investment in the continued growth of the prison population.
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Private prisons have a financial incentive to detain inmates for as long as possible. The prison has some input into when a detainee is released (good behavior, etc) and private prisons have been observed abusing this power. Private prisons also have incentives to find ways to cut costs and often do so in ways which harm detainees. Private prisons also have incentive to lobby for longer mandatory prison terms regardl…
It doesnt have to be. Why don't they do something like pay private prisons the bare minimum per diem but then offer a trailing commission for every year an ex-con is out of jail past a certain date. Do the statistics for average time to return to prison, and pay them a bonus every year a prisoner is over that average date for 10 years type thing. So jails make little money for the incarceration but earn profits from…
The issue isn't that you can structure incentives to make private prisons prioritize rehabilitation. The issue is that private prisons create a risk of regulatory capture. What creates the largest ROI for the private prison under your suggestions? Sinking loads of money into rehabilitation programmes losing money until decades later where they start to see their trailing commission, or ploughing loads of money into lobbying to change the rules to provide a high per diem and no rehabilitation goals?
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not a straw man, it is fact. Parent post wasn't saying this was no big deal, just pointing out correctly that there are more fundamental issues in play - like qualified immunity and the cultural racist cancers we suffer from that demonize poor and brown people and fetishize the military and police. Private prisons are awful . Any sane ethical person must agree with that. But calling out that it isn't the root of…
A strawman argument can be true, but still be a strawman. The essential point is that it's a distraction. Saying "we have to fix state prisons too!" is not an argument against "private prisons are a moral hazard". We should do both!
That's not what a strawman argument is.
A strawman argument is when you restate someone's argument in a way that's stupid, then you refute the stupid argument. Or in the extreme case, argue against an argument that the person never made. In both cases, you're not arguing against the other person, you're arguing against a straw man that you made up. Hence the name.
It's still a logical fallacy, just a different one. Fallacy of relative privation applies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Fallacy_of_r...
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#76I guess this is nice, but I think the question of "private prisons" can become a bit of a distraction. Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems. Consider that California state prisons were trying to save money by illegally sterilizing inmates as recently as 2010. Here's a great headline to consider: "California Bans Sterilization of Female Inmates Without Consent". 2013. In the United St…
> Maybe they make things worse, but they're not the root of our problems.
I have a hard time believing there are a few "root" problems. We got where we are because the entire incentive+accountability structure was completely skewed for decades. IMHO, there are thousands of "root" issues at this point, to the point where the word "root" is moot.
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesnt have to be. Why don't they do something like pay private prisons the bare minimum per diem but then offer a trailing commission for every year an ex-con is out of jail past a certain date. Do the statistics for average time to return to prison, and pay them a bonus every year a prisoner is over that average date for 10 years type thing. So jails make little money for the incarceration but earn profits from…
What could also make sense is paying the prison a lump sum for the convict instead of a per diem. This changes the incentive structure from keeping people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as fast as possible.
Just skip the rehab step entirely and just release them - it's cheaper for the prison and the increased chance of re-offending means they'll get another lump sum next go around too!
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesnt have to be. Why don't they do something like pay private prisons the bare minimum per diem but then offer a trailing commission for every year an ex-con is out of jail past a certain date. Do the statistics for average time to return to prison, and pay them a bonus every year a prisoner is over that average date for 10 years type thing. So jails make little money for the incarceration but earn profits from…
What could also make sense is paying the prison a lump sum for the convict instead of a per diem. This changes the incentive structure from keeping people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as fast as possible.
> This changes the incentive structure from keeping people locked up as long as possible to rehabilitating and releasing them as fast as possible.
So long as private prisons have a say in when a prisoner is released there is conflict of interest. If a private prison gets paid $100k for a prisoner, they are going to ensure they are released at the very soonest opportunity instead of detaining them as long as possible. If they get paid per diem, they will keep them as long as possible.
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree, private prisons are a moral hazard by nature. Pointing out a separate failure by state prisons is a straw man I think.
The operator of the first private prison in the US came to speak at a class of mine back in the 90s. They provided a minimum-security facility in an old hotel in Denver. The owner was very sincere, they honestly believed that they could provide a better experience for the prisoners, and they did. The focus was actually on rehabilitation, they were able to relax a lot of the rules for good prisoners that state and fed…
Arguably charter schools shouldn't exist either
Re: California bans private prisons and immigration detention centers (2019)
#80Would love to see California ban sales of goods made at private prisons as well. Or at least disclose it on the packaging so consumers can make a decision.
Wildland firefighting is another thorny issue, where prisoners who choose to fight fires are summarily banned from working as firefighters after release. I’m not sure I’d advocate for removing that choice from prisoners, but the extremely low wage seems unethical.