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Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

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Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#51

High human capital, perhaps? I would hazard the educational/ cultural level of a japanese high school grad about equals that of an American state univ grad (I is one, so I can criticize). Nobody would be surprised SF State got hit by an earthquake and the students didn't loot. (The low educational and cultural level of the US is embarassing....)

What the hell is a "cultural level"? How do I gain additional "culture"?

Speaking a language other than English, and knowing about a non-US culture.

Yes, that is sarcastic.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#52
post #26
post #9

They're good at their jobs, too: The clearance rate for murder in 2010 was an unbelievable 98.2 percent, according to West—so unbelievable that some attribute it to underreporting. High clearance rates don't mean police are good at their jobs. Police in Japan can hold a suspect for 23 days without charging him. During this period, they try to get a confession out, using techniques such as sleep deprivation. Furthermo…

How does the judge/jury distinction come into play? Is there empirical evidence that trials with juries have more accurate outcomes? I truly know nothing about this but my gut feeling has always been that juries don’t improve trials and I never perceived that as a strange or uncommon view.

The line I've heard is that experienced lawyers would rather be tried by a judge if they were innocent, but a jury if they were guilty.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#53
One important note: most Americans are honest and some will go well out of their way to do the right thing. I think there's actually more of the latter (people going well out of their way to help others) in the U.S. than in many other countries. If you lose something in the U.S. and there's a way for a person who finds it to return it to you, your odds are well above 50% of getting it back. Possibly 90%. This number is pretty constant across racial and geographic lines. Oddly enough, measured honestly rates tend to be slightly lower at the socioeconomic top and bottom than in the middle. At the bottom, it's because of economic desperation. At the top, it's because people are so used to a sense of winning and entitlement that they enjoy "beating the system". I'd argue that, at all levels, class-based resentments are the reason for lower levels of honesty among Americans.

Japan has something much closer to a "middle-class society" or classlessness than we do. They have rich and poor, but not in the way we do, and economic status doesn't persist over generations as in the U.S. For example, the earthquake victims are in for a very difficult few years-- more difficult than most people in the industrialized world ever experience-- but they're not going to fall to the bottom of society because of this. In the U.S., they easily could. I know PhDs in the U.S. who end up in $7/hour retail jobs after developing health problems, losing their jobs, their insurance, and their savings.

The biggest difference in the U.S. is that we have a large, angry underclass that (justly) considers itself failed by society and hates it. We also have a tiny but invincible upper class that gets away with literal robbery and tends to set the moral pace in our society: kids in academic cheating scandals generally say they're just preparing for the real world, and they're more accurate than we'd like to admit. "Most people cheat" is false, but "most of society's biggest winners are cheaters" is true.

I think the contempt for society and ethical behavior that you see in a visible few Americans is based in social class, not anything else. Every society has poor people, but our underclass comprises 20-40 percent of the population. It has a mix of people who've fallen into it recently (from the disintegrated bottom of the middle class) and who are angry, and it has families that have been in it for tens of generations and have been nurturing grudges forever. Also, not all looters and ruffians are in this underclass, because there are a lot of opportunistic middle-class people who adopt "thug" culture for kicks. In the U.S., we enable cultural illnesses (mean-spirited conservatism, religious bigotry, lower-class "thug" culture) that other societies have the sense of marginalize.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#54

High human capital, perhaps? I would hazard the educational/ cultural level of a japanese high school grad about equals that of an American state univ grad (I is one, so I can criticize). Nobody would be surprised SF State got hit by an earthquake and the students didn't loot. (The low educational and cultural level of the US is embarassing....)

I didn't down vote you, but I do disagree (disagree != downvote).

I live in a small town called Vero Beach, FL. Vero Beach is split in to two parts by the Intercoastal Waterway (locally known as the Indian River). The mainland portion of the city is lower than average in many regards. Most relevant to the situation at hand, we have a lower than average median-income, and the vast majority of our college grads move on to other cities. Our primary local industries are service and hospitality. If you were to come here from out of town, you would characterize many of the mainland residents as "rednecks". You see plenty of pick-up trucks sporting all manner of window decals. Of course, we also have a very large immigrant population due to the local citrus industry, so you also have lots of people walking the streets in their white t-shirts, dirty jeans, and large hats. About a 3.5 mile drive puts you in the heart of Gifford, FL; a sister city to Vero Beach, but could not be more different. Gifford's population is 57.43% black according to the 2000 census. Contrast this to 92.73% white in Vero Beach. By many outward appearances, this area is stuck in the early 1900s. Stereotypes abound in Vero Beach.

Interestingly, if you cross the bridge to the barrier island, you'll find another divide; the income divide. The barrier island has its own zip code (32963), which just happens to have the highest concentration of retired CEOs in the nation. When I did local IT consulting (computer repair), I had the opportunity to do work for the former CEO of Warner Lambert, the current CEO of Textron, and a retired board member for Chevron, among others. You can't throw a stone without hitting a former or acting CEO in 32963. There is ample opportunity for poorer residents across the river to make off with lots of expensive goods from homes just a few miles away during a catastrophe. Add to that the fact that pretty much all of the residents on the beach side aren't here during the summer, so their homes are unattended, guarded by only a small local police force that is vastly outnumbered and very, very busy during emergencies.

In 2004, we were struck with back-to-back hurricanes (within three weeks). Many people lost their homes to flooding and water intrusion (the roof failed). There was only passing major media coverage, because the storm came ashore in a relatively low-population area, and there weren't a lot of houses leveled, so it didn't make good news. I can assure you, a house does not have to be leveled to the ground in order to be uninhabitable. Once you've had 18" of river water in your house, you don't want to sleep there. Many went weeks without power, and gas (petrol) was unavailable for days, so while most families had supplies, there were plenty of people who couldn't last 10 days without electricity, gasoline, and food.

Through all of this, there was no mention of looting or increases in crime in Vero Beach. Quite the contrary. We had community run food banks and shelters that stayed open long after the worst had passed. Local landscape companies drove neighborhoods picking up debris without worrying about who will pay the bill, and sometimes it seemed like the whole town was actually grateful for what had happened. I've never felt a greater sense of community.

My point is that you don't need higher education in order to foster a culture that cares about people. To suggest otherwise is a dangerous cultural bias that infers elitism of the worst kind. Individuals derive their sense of attachment to their community in a variety of ways that often are not tied to any level of education or income.

So please, don't bother looking down your nose at us poor, uneducated, rednecks. We're not the ones in need of "some good learnin'" on the subject of community.

EDIT: Let me be more specific by separating concerns.

* I do agree that the overall response to the catastrophe in Japan is extremely honorable and is something we should strive for here in the US.

* I do agree that we lag behind in education and should strive to improve that.

* I strongly disagree that you should establish bias by correlating education, "lack of culture", and the predisposition to commit a crime.

* I strongly disagree that higher-education is the motivating factor behind the lack of looting in Japan.

* I strongly disagree that a lack of looting at a university has anything to do with their level of education, but more to do with the reasons they're there to become educated to begin with.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#56
post #47
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judges face bureaucratic pressure to maintain high conviction rates. According to the following paper, it can have negative effects on a Judge's career if he appears to be lenient: http://www.rasmusen.org/published/Rasmusen-01.JLS.jpncon.pdf

Only in a system where judges are elected, like the US. Many, if not most European countries (to discuss the examples I'm familiar with) appoint judges and have had a jury trial system until the beginning of the 20th century. It was abandoned after it was found to be easy to manipulate on a regular basis. Jury trials degenerated into character trials - prosecution would try to discredit the accused, and defense would…

I believe only a few US states elect judges; they're usually appointed.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#57
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only in a system where judges are elected, like the US. Many, if not most European countries (to discuss the examples I'm familiar with) appoint judges and have had a jury trial system until the beginning of the 20th century. It was abandoned after it was found to be easy to manipulate on a regular basis. Jury trials degenerated into character trials - prosecution would try to discredit the accused, and defense would…

I believe only a few US states elect judges; they're usually appointed.

Even if a judge is appointed, there could still be public outrage over the perception of low conviction rates. This would cause another judge to be appointed. The same thing goes on with cabinet positions of all levels of government where the public demonstrates outrage.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#58

High human capital, perhaps? I would hazard the educational/ cultural level of a japanese high school grad about equals that of an American state univ grad (I is one, so I can criticize). Nobody would be surprised SF State got hit by an earthquake and the students didn't loot. (The low educational and cultural level of the US is embarassing....)

I didn't down vote you, but I do disagree (disagree != downvote). I live in a small town called Vero Beach, FL. Vero Beach is split in to two parts by the Intercoastal Waterway (locally known as the Indian River). The mainland portion of the city is lower than average in many regards. Most relevant to the situation at hand, we have a lower than average median-income, and the vast majority of our college grads move on…

Probably too late to see this, but I (and my teachers) think of "culture" as basically "training". So if you can get a lot of great character training without ever being exposed to, say, Mozart, you would still be in my "high human capital" bin. In the US, I think usually character and education are correlated, mainly because being of high character opens up educational avenues for you (for which it is economical rational to pursue), while being a punk-ass closes off these doors.

There are lots of exceptions, of course; rural areas might be a case (I am rather fond of so called rednecks myself).

Also, I said that high school grads probably had the training of a mediocre college grad in the US -- I didnt say anything about high years of education in Japan being the cause of good behavior.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#59
post #12

>"Why don't Japanese loot? Because it's not in their culture. How is that culture defined? An absence of looting." immediately followed by: >A better explanation may be structural factors: a robust system of laws that reinforce honesty, a strong police presence, and, ironically, active crime organizations. how is that in any way different from the circular definition the writer just criticized? which I think indicate…

One is circular, one proposes a social mechanism whereby looting will lead to negative consequences for the looter. I'm having a hard time seeing what you think is not different about those two things.

Those social mechanisms are a part of culture. I find it hard to conceive a definition of culture that does not include the systems of negative consequences that a society enforces.

Re: Why so little looting in Japan? It's not just about honesty.

#60
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the hell is a "cultural level"? How do I gain additional "culture"?

Probably a better word for it is "civil society": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_society

Civil society is more "structural", while what I mean is more "internal", though (of course) they both complement each other.
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