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Why are there so many humans?

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Re: Why are there so many humans?

#61

Post by AstralStorm »

GuiA wrote: post #23
reedwolf wrote: post #5

I believe all genetically possible humans should be brought into existence. If we imagine the set of all genetic combinations that result in something that could be conceivably thought of as “human,” only an infinitesimal fraction of humans will ever be born through traditional sexual recombination. To be born is to win a lottery with astronomically long odds. As biotechnology advances, we will be able to conceive an…

This is the first time I’ve read the argument that it is our moral duty to give existence to all the humans in the set that is all possible DNA permutations that encode human beings, and I have to thank you for that. Might make for a good scifi story. You need a catchy slogan, like “enumerate all humans!”

Even if we are to exclude silent genes and debilitating illnesses and obvious critical defects from that set, it's still very likely more humans than would fit on Earth. (Which has some 100 billion carrying capacity.) And a lot of them would be essentially twins.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#62

Post by AstralStorm »

mrexroad wrote: post #24
reedwolf wrote: post #5

I believe all genetically possible humans should be brought into existence. If we imagine the set of all genetic combinations that result in something that could be conceivably thought of as “human,” only an infinitesimal fraction of humans will ever be born through traditional sexual recombination. To be born is to win a lottery with astronomically long odds. As biotechnology advances, we will be able to conceive an…

> I’m sure we’ll be able to identify extremely negative mutations and either fix them or abandon those genomes. will the resulting eugenics wars [0] be simulated [1] as well? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_wars [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon

You missed the part where extremely is defined. ;)

That would have to be a very careful choice. Otherwise, sound the Godwin.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#63

Post by s1artibartfast »

hnaccy wrote: post #48
bena wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be eventually true, but we're much further from that point than you might think. The U.S. alone wastes about 141 trillion calories worth of food. It comes out to around 1250 calories per capita. Feeding the world is a logistics problem right now, not a production problem. And we also have the space for all 7 billion humans with room to spare. I think right now, there's enough for everybody to have about 4 ac…

Pure caloric need may be a non-issue but I don't think it's sustainable for every living human to have a first world lifestyle barring many tech improvements. It's seems preferable to have a lower stable population where everyone has a very high standard of living and a low aggregate environmental impact. A flat cap of two children per person would halt and slowly reduce the population without killing anyone or being…

There isn’t really any reason a first world lifestyle isn’t sustainable for everyone. France emits half the carbon per person and has a great standard. Similarly, higher lifestyle is tied to fewer children, and therefore less carbon emissions.

If there was one thing that we could do to increase sustainability, it would be to Increase quality of life as fast as possible

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#64

Post by davidstone »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #56
k__ wrote: post #43

I always like to learn about human skills that aren't obvious and that other animals, especially other great apes, lack For example Humans can throw good. Humans can run very long. Humans won't usually kill each other when put together in great masses.

The first one is an attribute of homo sapiens, but not other, extinct, humans like neanderthal. Spearthrowing appears to be an adaptation that is unique to our kind of human. Sportsball fans everywhere rejoice!

Do you have a source for this claim? It is contradicted by https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6347593/

"Evidence-based debates around the origins of thrusting and throwing spear use in human evolution have typically focused on hominin skeletal evidence. Proposals that features of the upper limbs of different species of Homo indicate that throwing only comes into play with H. sapiens23,35 are hampered by multiple issues. These include small sample sizes, human variation in populations36, evidence that humeral robusticity and shape may not correlate with strains in weapon use37, and a lack of clarity whether any single activity contributes to or offsets bone remodeling or robusticity36,38,39. Others argue for an earlier emergence of throwing, showing that features necessary for accurate and powerful throwing are evidenced in H. erectus fossils40–42. A recent find of an early Neanderthal dating to MIS 7 from Tourville-la-Rivière shows skeletal trauma consistent with repeated throwing, supporting the hypothesis that they were capable and frequent throwers43."

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#65

Post by aklemm »

pengaru wrote: post #54
remram wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that they tend to love their own children (which is not a specifically female or motherly trait?) has little to do with whether the life they want for themselves is one of caring for 12 of them.

Certainly not today's women, that would get in the way of traveling and filling your instagram with selfies from exotic places.

Hopefully you find what you want in life, but I’m not betting you will.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#66

Post by aklemm »

briefcomment wrote: post #34
mindfulhack wrote: post #25

I know this is off topic, but: There are too many of us. If we can't override our survival instinct to multiply (and consume) uncontrollably, then we are at risk of making ourselves extinct. Then there will be none of us.

That may be true, but this mindset is one of the catalysts for the eugenics movement. Combine that mindset with incredible wealth and a "messiah complex", and we're in for a horrifying future. Probably better to look for ways for a growing population to thrive on the earth, rather than admit defeat to overpopulation.

If we don’t cap out at some reasonable population, it seems to me we’ll lose basically all of the natural world long before the Earth can no longer support us through industrial agriculture and technology. I don’t like that trade-off.

The eugenics thing is doubtful; what exactly is the mechanism that ties eugenics to population controls? There are myriad ethical ways to control population. For example, just make all countries advanced and the people will choose to have fewer children, as is happening already now.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#67

Post by requin246 »

redis_mlc wrote: post #16

> “Then two technologies were introduced that changed these Maya’s lives and, ultimately, their population: a gas-powered water pump and two gas-powered maize grinders. [..] By 2003, women who started reproducing in the 1970s had eight to 12 children.” Gotta wonder if the women thought that was progress, or not.

This is a (very recent) anachronism.

Most people in antiquity saw children as a blessing. The more children you had, the larger your bloodline would be. In fact, being unable to have children was a point of shame for a woman. It wasn’t until the rise of the modern era in the west that people started wanting small families or no children at all.

You can still see this idea of children as a blessing present in some communities that haven’t been westernized, e.g. some Mohawk communities in Canada.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#68

Post by pengaru »

aklemm wrote: post #65
pengaru wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not today's women, that would get in the way of traveling and filling your instagram with selfies from exotic places.

Hopefully you find what you want in life, but I’m not betting you will.

Those who want nothing have everything.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#69

Post by DoreenMichele »

redis_mlc wrote: post #16

> “Then two technologies were introduced that changed these Maya’s lives and, ultimately, their population: a gas-powered water pump and two gas-powered maize grinders. [..] By 2003, women who started reproducing in the 1970s had eight to 12 children.” Gotta wonder if the women thought that was progress, or not.

This article seems to leave out critical "common knowledge": There are so many humans because birth rates tend to decline after child mortality rates go down. The article also seems to not address the detail of whether or not this group had access to birth control of some sort so as to engineer a decline in birth rates.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#70

Post by mindfulhack »

rossnordby wrote: post #46
mindfulhack wrote: post #25

I know this is off topic, but: There are too many of us. If we can't override our survival instinct to multiply (and consume) uncontrollably, then we are at risk of making ourselves extinct. Then there will be none of us.

Given the timescales that humans operate on, it would be incredibly strange for us to reproduce into extinction. As far as direct effects, an unmitigated exponential growth trend would eventually result in widespread famine and other resource restrictions leading to a population-limiting amount of death. Not extinction, but not much fun either. Long term accumulating issues that become unrecoverable past a tipping po…

I appreciate your immaculate grammar. :) There's not many people - at least outside HN - who write Internet comments of such good writing quality. From one technical writer to possibly another, thanks. :)

And I appreciate your optimism. Not sure if it's been done much, but more honest analysis - that isn't biased by human emotions like hope of survival - on the history of the natural world and all evolution across all organisms from the beginning until now, analysing which behaviours result in which outcomes in terms of species extinction and resources sustainability, would be appreciated. No one wants to hear bad news, but we have to take its possibility seriously.

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