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Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

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Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#261

Post by dhosek »

nix23 wrote: post #232
dhosek wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an observation that points out that physical books are not being lent out hundred or thousands of times so the physical book argument (or the digitized physical book argument) don't hold water.

I never said anything about physical book's, many public-library have already e-books, like research-papers and so on.

Sorry, lots of commentary. The IA lending is premised on the idea that a physical book can be lent an unlimited number of times. Public library lending of e-books is premised on limited number of lends with most lends (Libby/Media on Demand being the most common of these, but there are other programs as well that work the same such as 3M's digital library offering). With Hoopla, there's a per-lend charge that takes place.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#262

Post by intopieces »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #254

To appease publishers? How about so they can do right by the many authors out there who are still able to sell books through Powell's, Amazon or other local book sellers?

When America fixes copyright to be life of the author only, I will agree with your concerns.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#263

Post by shervinafshar »

lordlimecat wrote: post #249
shervinafshar wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a IP lawyer here, but I speculate that when and if this lawsuit goes to higher courts, the fact that IA was acting in favour of the public in a national emergency would be in their favor.

The plaintiffs will ask "if this was the case why did you not work with libraries to ensure that copies loaned were backed by physical copies"? And they will ask "why did you not put forward a good faith effort to work with publishers?" Then they will ask "why did you not reach out to any legislators or executives to seek an exemption?" And IA will have no answer other than "because we are a law unto ourselves".

I can imagine the answer to all those questions from IA wouldn't be "because we are a law unto ourselves" as you suggested, but it would be along the lines that following bureaucratic channels during a national emergency to be able to help the public with availability of books, would have been slow and hence counterproductive.

In this country, laws have a interesting way to bend during national crises. I'll keep my fingers cross for that in this case.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#264

Post by wriq »

jedberg wrote: post #260

The more interesting thing here is the "controlled digital lending" test case that will almost certainly come of all of this. If they somehow prevail on that aspect and set a legal precedent there, that would resolve a lot of issues for a lot of companies. For example, Netflix could stream every movie ever, as long as they bought enough DVDs for peak demand. Or those companies that would set up 1000 TV antennas in a…

"Or those companies that would set up 1000 TV antennas in a datacenter and then stream"

I believe Aereo tried just that and failed - https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/06/25/325488386...

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#265

Post by dwheeler »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #52
AmericanChopper wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reward ratio concept that you invented to frame this only accounts for one side of the transaction. For starters, to give something away for free, you have to own it first. There no moral high ground in deciding to give away other people’s things. But if you want to only focus on the potential for public good, then where would you put the “reward ratio” for the authors who’s work was given away by the internet a…

> There no moral high ground in deciding to give away other people’s things. Copyright does not have the moral high ground either. The fact is most books should already have entered the public domain. However, the public was cheated out of its rights due to ever increasing copyright durations. Why should authors and publishers retain monopoly rights to works for over a hundred years? It should be a few years at most…

Copyright has the force of law internationally. Which means that courts, police, and armies back it up.

I would agree that copyright has many problems. But "rule of law" also matters.

Perhaps more importantly, the Internet Archive has chosen to take actions that are likely illegal, and do that in ways that threaten its very existence. Any court in the world might rule against the IA with a financial punishment that would permanently shut it down AND hand all its resources to its enemies. And those rules will be enforced by trained policemen with guns, tear gas, and bulletproof vests.

The IA is very important, and in general I really like the IA. The Wayback machine is a critical resource today. The IA's decision to risk the existence of itself and all its archives, by taking this step, was extremely unwise. I'm disappointed in the IA, I expected smarter decisions.

I hope they get some excellent lawyers that might salvage them so they can at least exist in some form. Right now, the IA and all it archived is at risk of being destroyed, with nothing good to come from it. If they stay in existence, I hope that they get some good lawyers to keep them away from such horrendously bad legal decisions in the future.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#267

Post by JoshTriplett »

intopieces wrote: post #262
xhkkffbf wrote: post #254

To appease publishers? How about so they can do right by the many authors out there who are still able to sell books through Powell's, Amazon or other local book sellers?

When America fixes copyright to be life of the author only, I will agree with your concerns.

How many books written today would not be written at all if copyright lasted, say, 20 years? 10? "life of the author" is far too long; all culture is built atop other culture.

Copyright is a limited exclusive grant in exchange for the expectation of having more works written/created/painted/drawn/designed. We should not just ratchet up the duration or scope of that exclusive grant without the expectation that we'll get more value out of it (more works) in the trade.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#268

Post by miles »

intopieces wrote: post #262
xhkkffbf wrote: post #254

To appease publishers? How about so they can do right by the many authors out there who are still able to sell books through Powell's, Amazon or other local book sellers?

When America fixes copyright to be life of the author only, I will agree with your concerns.

Life of the author seems potentially too short. What if an author is struck down early? Shouldn't their family left behind be able to enjoy some of the profits for a period of time?

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#269

Post by mcguire »

raxxorrax wrote: post #74
beebmam wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, I can't help but place blame on the actual agents of its potential demise: the plaintiffs of this lawsuit

Yes, I think that perspective is actually more relevant, even if the IA might have made a mistake. But I see only victims in this conflict. Most authors today don't really eat with golden spoons and to have an organisation that helps them get their fair share of the work they put into the books is certainly necessary in the internet age. On the other hand the internet archive is an extremely valuable service. I hope…

"...to have an organisation that helps them get their fair share of the work they put into the books is certainly necessary in the internet age..."

The publishers?

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#270

Post by jedberg »

wriq wrote: post #264
jedberg wrote: post #260

The more interesting thing here is the "controlled digital lending" test case that will almost certainly come of all of this. If they somehow prevail on that aspect and set a legal precedent there, that would resolve a lot of issues for a lot of companies. For example, Netflix could stream every movie ever, as long as they bought enough DVDs for peak demand. Or those companies that would set up 1000 TV antennas in a…

"Or those companies that would set up 1000 TV antennas in a datacenter and then stream" I believe Aereo tried just that and failed - https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/06/25/325488386...

They did. But this could set a new precedent.
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