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Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#431

Post by throwanem »

perl4ever wrote: post #415
throwanem wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, exactly. It's pretty wild to see "transparency" invoked in the context of literally talking behind someone's back.

"Literally" talking behind someone's back, as you put it, is not talking behind someone's back, in the normal sense. So what's wild about calling it transparent?

The wild part is the part where somebody plays high-school head games, instead of acting like a competent adult does and being forthright about whatever issue there is at hand.

I mean, I don't know what your interpersonal relationships in life have given you to consider a normal and healthy way for people to interact for one another. But I can absolutely tell you that what we're talking about here is neither of those.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#432

Post by woutr_be »

lmilcin wrote: post #10

Yeah. Also, don't joke about leaving the company. I have been passed over for promotion because of a complete joke remark like that made in presence of a person with whom I did not have very close working relationship. --- Making a joke about firing your subordinate would require perfect understanding of the state of mind of the person you are talking to. As a manager your job is to understand it is not possible to u…

> Yeah. Also, don't joke about leaving the company.

One of my personal rules is to not even discuss leaving a company with any colleague. It’s far to easy for this information to leak back to your manager. Even if your colleagues had good intentions bring it up, the fact that you didn’t says enough.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#433

Post by jlj »

perl4ever wrote: post #412
jlj wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You could call it transparency Nope. 100% passive aggressive, toxic behavior.

It matters a great deal whether someone is doing something to deceive or confuse. So whether it's toxic behavior depends on context. If someone is reliable and trustworthy in their communication, then calling them "toxic" because you don't like the style is just wrong. Conversely, someone can tell you all day every day how honest and straightforward they are, but if they aren't consistent or trustworthy, then their c…

The behavior is toxic. It doesn't matter the intent or context. It is passive aggressive, period.

At best, it is someone who is scared to have difficult conversations. At worst, who knows.. I've slowly learned not to try and rationalize what makes people like that tick. It's their issue, not mine.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#434

Post by perl4ever »

throwanem wrote: post #431
perl4ever wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Literally" talking behind someone's back, as you put it, is not talking behind someone's back, in the normal sense. So what's wild about calling it transparent?

The wild part is the part where somebody plays high-school head games, instead of acting like a competent adult does and being forthright about whatever issue there is at hand. I mean, I don't know what your interpersonal relationships in life have given you to consider a normal and healthy way for people to interact for one another. But I can absolutely tell you that what we're talking about here is neither of those…

I haven't experienced the OP's described behavior that I recall.

I was trying to make a clear contrast with behavior that is much worse, which I have experienced a lot.

If you're having such a hostile reaction, should I suspect you think the "much worse" behavior is normal and healthy?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#435

Post by xapata »

P-ala-din wrote: post #333
xapata wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not all foo are bar." "This foo is bar." Both statements can be true simultaneously.

Of course, that's true but I can't map that to the statements at hand. I understood it to be: P(W) == P(M) and P(W) > P(M)

"In one study" means "In a particular sample." A sample does not always share the same characteristics as the population.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#436

Post by cutemonster »

dragonwriter wrote: post #361
munchbunny wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimited firing power and I still need to regroup with HR when it comes to that. Having that system in place isn't enough. You need that system to have teeth, and you need to have someone with as much power as you who will review your decisions and play dev…

> HR tends to avoid making waves. The only time I've seen HR (excuse the metaphor) plant the flag on the hill they intend to die on, it's because the person being fired or managed out was a protected class of worker. I have never seen HR push back just because the manager had insufficient reasons or suspect reasoning. Second guessing management hiring/firing decisions that don't expose the company to unacceptable ris…

Does that mean you disagree with "the systems were nominal at best"?

And sometimes / often there are real and accurate reviews of termination reasons (From your perspective)?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#437

Post by micheljansen »

This also holds true for the more general case: be very very careful with jokes, especially sarcastic ones, whenever there is any kind of power differential. The response really is very different than from an equal peer. Just think how these come across from a colleague or from your boss:

"Who created this piece of crap? Haha!" "Well, I guess you will have to wake up earlier to finish it haha" "Calling it a day already today?" "Oh yeah this is pretty much the quality I expect from you haha"

Humour can be a very powerful tool in a leader's toolbox but it takes a really really good relationship and a culture of emotional safety to work. When in doubt I'd always play it safe.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#438

Post by mepiethree »

goatinaboat wrote: post #342
Kaze404 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. I recently had an honestly disastrous experience at a job because we tried to pretend that power dynamic doesn't exist. My boss (the CTO) considered me a friend and vice versa, but that made every work interaction so awkward (for me at least) because I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee. I attribute this as both of us being incredibly young (lower 20…

I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee There’s an old saying, if your boss if your friend, he’s either a bad boss or a bad friend.

I recently got promoted to be the manager of a guy who has literally been my best friend since we were 10. Anyone got advice about how to not be doomed to be a bad boss or bad friend?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#439

Post by mepiethree »

pc86 wrote: post #354
notJim wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turning this into an issue of mere comfort betrays a great deal of privilege. Many, arguably most, people are a firing or two away from poverty and misery. In tech, this can be especially true of people early in their careers, and especially those from less-advantaged backgrounds. If you get fired from your first tech job, and your manager talks a bunch of shit about you, that may be your last tech job.

Even in the current climate employers are desperate for (good) developers, at all points on the experience spectrum. If you live in a city you can probably get an interview the day after you get fired. Sooner if you're willing to use a recruiter.

Is this still true during Coronavirus? I know my company at least has raised our interview standard

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#440

Post by goatinaboat »

mepiethree wrote: post #438
goatinaboat wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee There’s an old saying, if your boss if your friend, he’s either a bad boss or a bad friend.

I recently got promoted to be the manager of a guy who has literally been my best friend since we were 10. Anyone got advice about how to not be doomed to be a bad boss or bad friend?

I recently got promoted to be the manager of a guy who has literally been my best friend since we were 10.

There will come a time when you will know something he can't know, such as layoffs are coming. Or maybe he deserves that promotion/raise but you can't give it to him because everyone knows you're friends and you open yourself to accusations of favoritism (or worse). If you really want to square this circle the only way to to get yourself moved to a different reporting line.

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