Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#261

Post by nogabebop23 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #184

MetallicCloud wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me and my wife joke about getting divorced all the time, and we've been happily married for 15 years. Maybe that joke wouldn't be appropriate for your marriage, but I'm not really into people giving absolute truths about other peoples lives and pretending like they're gospel. Every relationship is different, and there will be different relationship norms for everyone. It's one thing to tell people that you should act…

"Maybe that joke wouldn't be appropriate for your marriage" It would probably be fine. Of course, it's all a threshold game; if you're strong in other places you can get away with things that are technically a net negative, but you've got the buffer to deal with it. Every marriage if not every relationship does that since none are perfect. But why blow the buffer on something so trivially stupid? It also isn't really…

I'm not convinced the linkage is as strong nor directive as you make it out. Wouldn't thinking come before talking? I've had some pretty dark thoughts that end as that.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#262

Post by hashkb » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:08 PM UTC

My first job had drunken happy hours complete with fake firings by the Director of Engineering. I thought it was hilarious at the time; now it's just one more thing I wish I hadn't had to unlearn. I definitely regret all of the times I defended this kind of behavior.

And then stepping back... it's super common to joke about violence, too.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#263

Post by jlj » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #234

throwanem wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing subtle about that kind of behavior. Contemptible, yes, but not subtle.

You could call it transparency. It's vastly better to have someone make you aware of what's up than blindside you or gaslight you by giving contradictory information/demands.

> You could call it transparency

Nope. 100% passive aggressive, toxic behavior.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#264

Post by P-ala-din » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #218

P-ala-din wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"While early research focused on the prevalence among high-achieving women, impostor syndrome has been recognized to affect both men and women equally." "The researchers concluded that the women who participated in this study experienced impostor phenomenon more so than the men who participated." am I misparsing this sentence? how can both be true?

The first is characterizing a broad collection of research findings since the early identification of the phenomenon, the other the particular survey.

so which one is wrong?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#265

Post by nogabebop23 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #209

tinyhouse wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My wife and I decided, before we got married, that divorce was off the table for us. Well, you can decide whatever you want before you get married. People change, things happen, it's called life...

Catholics believe that marriage ends only with death. While obviously a civil divorce is possible, the actual sacramental marriage is indissoluble. One of the consequences of this belief is that Catholic couples are considerably less likely to get a civil divorce than other Christians or atheists[1]. [1] https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-continue-t...

Does this mean to get a true divorce you need to choose between your terrible current situation and your faith? That's a tough position.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#266

Post by hashkb » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

MetallicCloud wrote: post #155

jerf wrote: post #36

Similarly, marriage protip: Don't joke about divorces. Even if you think your partner can handle it. Mine can and we still don't do it, as policy. It's a known policy, too; we mentioned it to each other before (briefly, a long time ago, not as some big event). This is certainly far from "the one key to a happy marriage!", but it's a brick in the house. It generally fits into the larger social IQ element of thinking a…

Me and my wife joke about getting divorced all the time, and we've been happily married for 15 years. Maybe that joke wouldn't be appropriate for your marriage, but I'm not really into people giving absolute truths about other peoples lives and pretending like they're gospel. Every relationship is different, and there will be different relationship norms for everyone. It's one thing to tell people that you should act…

I'm with you... and would go even further - if we ever stop making divorce jokes over the most insignificant possible items, I'll be worried. (But I'd never apply that logic to a workplace or anything other than a close personal relationship.)

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#267

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

P-ala-din wrote: post #264

dragonwriter wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is characterizing a broad collection of research findings since the early identification of the phenomenon, the other the particular survey.

so which one is wrong?

Neither is necessarily wrong, as they have a different universe of analysis.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#268

Post by lostcolony » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

blowfish721 wrote: post #96

gowld wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the few memories I have of my old job was my grandmanager saying "leaving early today?" As I passed them in the hall at 5pm.

At my current position it's quite usual for my manager to ask why I'm still at the office when it's 3:30PM on a friday. One of the reasons I'm still working where I am.

Yep. My team knows to expect me asking them "why are you here" on the Friday ending a sprint, after we've had our planning session for the following one.

"I'm just about to head out", "okay, good", or "Just finishing up (ticket)", "How long will that takes?", "Maybe thirty minutes", "Okay; finish it up but then get outta here", or "Kid's in daycare; it's on the way home, figured I'd take this as a breather", "Okay, fair enough. As a reminder, there are phone booths, quiet rooms, and break rooms if you want to get out of your desk." Etc.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#269

Post by nogabebop23 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

razadot wrote: post #251

sudhirj wrote: post #24

The basic rule of comedy, or making jokes, which is amateur comedy, is that you always punch up. It’s funny when you say “ha! you’re fired!” to your boss, but never when you say it to someone you can actually fire. Same reason why parents (should) never joke about punishment or disciplinary action with their kids - when you have power and authority you also have a responsibility not to belittle it. People will take y…

As someone who gets paid to do standup comedy, this is not a basic rule of comedy. I get that it's not appropriate to punch down (especially in the work place). It is always riskier to punch down with comedy but it is 100% not a rule of comedy not to punch down.

as a general rule, all punching in the workplace is frowned upon

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#270

Post by gonehome » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

I think it's good advice because the prediction of the social situation around becoming a manager is accurate (and often not discussed at all).

It is awkward for people to go from not being a manager to being a manager among their peers. In new social situations I think that 'awkwardness' is actually uncertainty about how to behave because you haven't been in that position before. A lot of social skills seem to be based on accurate models/predictions of what to do in certain situations in order to bond with people.

When you're suddenly a manager the old tools don't work as well and people try to generate that camaraderie with humor, but for the reasons listed in the article this can be particularly bad if done poorly.

Other jokes I've noticed in addition to the firing thing, are annoying humble brag comments like, "Can you believe X important person wanted to talk to me about this thing?". I think they're trying to signal that they don't think they're important, but the obvious context just comes across as bragging. I think people get more respect when they just recognize the role they're in and are more confident about it (but that probably comes with experience of navigating that social situation).

A good lead will explain these things directly to a new manager because the social bits are not obvious and are uncomfortable. This is even more important in fields where the baseline social skills may be not quite at par anyway.

One advantage is that if you have knowledge of this, and you can model the way others think about it - you can actually be a force to make people more comfortable than they'd otherwise be. Encouraging them to ask questions by asking yourself in front of them when you don't know something. Suggesting they go home early if something is bothering them and that you do it too. Reassuring them if they're doing a good job or if something they're working on is particularly tricky etc.

A good manager can do a lot to make someone feel safe/secure and make them happy, which is often a prerequisite for them to be a strong member of the team and stay for a long time.