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In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

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Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#11

Post by epistasis »

jwond wrote: post #9
epistasis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.

Disparity of outcome does not prove disparity of opportunity.

Could you explain the logic that get you to that conclusion?

Everytime somebody has tried to argue that to me, it turns out that they believe that there are racial differences that are not based on evidence.

For example, I once had somebody say that the racial outcome differences were not like socioeconomic upbringing differences in outcome, and that though socioeconomic outcome differences were evidence of difference in opportunity, that racial differences were genetic, which is clearly abiological.

So if you are not positing racial differences in opportunity, what are you positing as the explanatory variable?

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#12

Post by ReptileMan »

epistasis wrote: post #6
_prototype_ wrote: post #4

And? In 2020 America there is ample opportunity for anyone to attempt a CS Phd. I am a proponent of equality of opportunity, not of outcome.

This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.

True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s.

Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer livable wage compared to the 30K phd stipend.

There is infinite number of lines that go through a single data point.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#13

Post by ygaitonde »

jwond wrote: post #9
epistasis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.

Disparity of outcome does not prove disparity of opportunity.

A PhD in CS is the final result of a long series of opportunities which certain groups may/may not have equitable access to. e.g. an affordable undergraduate education, resources to support students throughout undergrad, a good high school/elementary/pre-k education, and so on.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#14

Post by luminaobscura »

epistasis wrote: post #11
jwond wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disparity of outcome does not prove disparity of opportunity.

Could you explain the logic that get you to that conclusion? Everytime somebody has tried to argue that to me, it turns out that they believe that there are racial differences that are not based on evidence. For example, I once had somebody say that the racial outcome differences were not like socioeconomic upbringing differences in outcome, and that though socioeconomic outcome differences were evidence of differenc…

If it was all socioeconomics, you could see that in the data. You would control for parent's income and/or education, and you would see disparity disappear.

I don't know what is the primary cause of disparities but i wouldn't assume it's all socioeconomics without evidence.

Maybe different groups are valuing things differently? For example, an Indian may try to migrate to US using PHD as a gateway. So they may be more willing to sacrifice and work hard. Or maybe for some groups PHD (or education in general) brings more prestige compared to others.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#15

Post by speby »

twybrobdingnag wrote: post #10

Nonresident Alien 906 61.7% Amer Indian or Alaska Native 2 0.1% Asian 151 10.3% Black or African-American 13 0.9% Native Hawaiian/Pac Islander 1 0.1% White 365 24.9% Multiracial, not Hispanic 9 0.6% Hispanic, any race 21 1.4%

And only 21 of hispanic background? That's low, too. Also, "Non-resident Alien" could include all manner of race/ethnicity. Does it break anything down beyond that?

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#16

Post by jungletime »

This is terrible. More black people are struck by lightning, than earn a CS Phd?

"over the last 30 years (1989-2018) the U.S. has averaged 43 reported lightning fatalities per year. Only about 10% of people who are struck by lightning are killed, leaving 90% with various degrees of disability"

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds

13.2% of the US population is black. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218

So expected is about 6 black people killed by lighting, and 60 struck/year vs 13 who graduate with CS Phd if these stats are correct.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#17

Post by epistasis »

luminaobscura wrote: post #14
epistasis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain the logic that get you to that conclusion? Everytime somebody has tried to argue that to me, it turns out that they believe that there are racial differences that are not based on evidence. For example, I once had somebody say that the racial outcome differences were not like socioeconomic upbringing differences in outcome, and that though socioeconomic outcome differences were evidence of differenc…

If it was all socioeconomics, you could see that in the data. You would control for parent's income and/or education, and you would see disparity disappear. I don't know what is the primary cause of disparities but i wouldn't assume it's all socioeconomics without evidence. Maybe different groups are valuing things differently? For example, an Indian may try to migrate to US using PHD as a gateway. So they may be mor…

My point is that socioeconomic differences resulting in different outcomes would be accepted as evidence of differences of opportunity. Because there's ample evidence of opportunities being different when growing up with fewer resources and more stresses.

There's also ample evidence of racial discrimination resulting in differences of opportunity, in all fields of science. But people are quick to assume that it doesn't exist, or are quick to point out any chance that it may even exist.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#18

Post by epistasis »

ReptileMan wrote: post #12
epistasis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.

True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer l…

That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books.

What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#19

Post by ta_tunestub »

According to Census Bureau (2019)[1], this is the racial/ethnic makeup of the US:

    White                                       60.4%
    Hispanic and Latino Americans (of any race) 18.3%
    Black or African American                   13.4%
    Asian                                       5.9%
    Native Americans and Alaska Natives         1.3%
    Native Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islander 0.2%
    Two or more races 2.7%
Below is the normalized 2019 CS Ph.D. count for what you'd expect if the US was 100% of each respective race/ethnicity:

    White                          608
    Hispanic...                    115
    Black or African/American      97
    Asian                          2,560
    Native Americans/Alaska Native 153
    Native Hawaiian/Pac Islander   500
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_Unit...

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#20

Post by cameldrv »

ReptileMan wrote: post #12
epistasis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This stat is clear evidence that there is not equality of opportunity.

True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer l…

The income math on doing a CS PhD if you already have a bachelor's I think fairly strongly argues against it. The salary differential for a PhD just doesn't make up for losing out on six years of high paying work. The major exceptions are (right now) an ML PhD, which is highly sought after. Also, if you want to do government/defense work, the PhD is very useful.

On the other hand, if you are a foreigner, it's pretty hard to break into the U.S. IT job market. H1Bs are scarce. If you can get accepted into a U.S. PhD program though, you get a well recognized credential, and you get a year of OPT and it's easier to get an H1B after that (or at least it was -- I know a lot of this is changing). You also get six years to improve your English. Even if you return to your home country, the U.S. PhD is likely to open many doors.

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