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Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#251

Post by razadot »

sudhirj wrote: post #24

The basic rule of comedy, or making jokes, which is amateur comedy, is that you always punch up. It’s funny when you say “ha! you’re fired!” to your boss, but never when you say it to someone you can actually fire. Same reason why parents (should) never joke about punishment or disciplinary action with their kids - when you have power and authority you also have a responsibility not to belittle it. People will take y…

As someone who gets paid to do standup comedy, this is not a basic rule of comedy.

I get that it's not appropriate to punch down (especially in the work place). It is always riskier to punch down with comedy but it is 100% not a rule of comedy not to punch down.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#252

Post by majormajor »

pmarreck wrote: post #131
_gfrc wrote: post #14

This is along the lines of "Ha, taking half the day off, are we?" when somebody leaves a little bit earlier than usual. It sounds like (just) a bad joke, but it has severe consequences for your working relationship. I get that it's tempting to make jokes when you start managing for your old team members. Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that your relationship will change. It will only make it m…

This is why, if I ever manage, my focus will be on timely deliverables and not on time-at-desk. Give me a day when you think you can deliver something, update me as soon as you realize you can't ("manage expectations"), and do whatever you want with the rest of your time...

That sounds lovely in theory but gets tricky quick with employees who give you estimates that seem too high, and then don't even meet those.

And then you have to figure out if they need help, if they're over their head, if they're being lazy, if they're getting interrupted by stuff that's not on your radar, or WTF is really going on, and if (a) they're not telling you and (b) you have no visibility into their day (say they're remote), then it gets really hard fast.

And the more insecure they feel, the less likely they are to directly tell you they need help.

So as manager: don't joke about firing, don't joke about time at desk, don't joke about performance.

But as employee: if you get your shit down, and have talked to your manager about it, and you're both good with the amount of stuff getting done, you shouldn't be concerned with taking a day off here or there, or leaving early, or working from home. But be aware that a lot of performance monitoring stuff isn't for you, and not everyone is doing as well as you are.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#253

Post by nogabebop23 »

mjayhn wrote: post #177
Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

> To expand on the article’s point, I think the biggest thing young managers don’t understand is that people are going to be insincere to you as a basic showing of respect and a basic desire for career preservation. They’re going to smile and appear to enjoy you and laugh at your jokes and seem ok with everything, much moreso than they otherwise would. I know it's hard and it took me until my 30s with a long career b…

There's just no upside in this approach. Educate your manager? It wasn't asked for, won't work and is not appreciated. Make the world a better place? You're better off making your world a better place by leaving or changing positions.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#254

Post by nogabebop23 »

CapriciousCptl wrote: post #201
Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

How about saying, “please don’t joke about firing me?” Feedback is a 2-way street and people aren’t mind readers.

I don't think I'd make this "Joke" in the first place, but if I was a 3rd-person observer to this scenario my honest first reaction would be (1) that's a weak attempt at humour, quickly followed by (2) that person is really sensitive.

I suspect the manager would interpret that sort of feedback as #2 as well

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#255

Post by Mc_Big_G »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #217
Mc_Big_G wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama: 1 bad joke 45: Infinity bad jokes Interesting who we choose which to focus on.

This whole "It's really interesting that ..." rhetoric that's been somehow on the rise needs to die. State your point. Since you didn't state it, I have to guess. It seems like you're suggesting that HN is overly forgiving of Trump and overly critical of Obama, which is laughable given how HN treats the current administration. But of course you didn't actually make a point, so nobody else can really address it.

The downvotes refute your assertion. You know exactly what my point is.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#256

Post by CapriciousCptl »

zeroxfe wrote: post #229
CapriciousCptl wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about saying, “please don’t joke about firing me?” Feedback is a 2-way street and people aren’t mind readers.

This disregards the power imbalance -- lots of employees (especially junior ones) are not comfortable being so firm with their managers.

Part of life is tactfully dealing with people who have power over you. It’s not very comfortable for anyone.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#257

Post by nogabebop23 »

jerf wrote: post #36

Similarly, marriage protip: Don't joke about divorces. Even if you think your partner can handle it. Mine can and we still don't do it, as policy. It's a known policy, too; we mentioned it to each other before (briefly, a long time ago, not as some big event). This is certainly far from "the one key to a happy marriage!", but it's a brick in the house. It generally fits into the larger social IQ element of thinking a…

My go-to joke every wedding anniversary is "X years, that's long time to be married to the wrong person."

I stole it from my Dad who's celebrating 50+ years so while not causal it definitely isn't a marriage-ender...

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#258

Post by nogabebop23 »

MetallicCloud wrote: post #155
jerf wrote: post #36

Similarly, marriage protip: Don't joke about divorces. Even if you think your partner can handle it. Mine can and we still don't do it, as policy. It's a known policy, too; we mentioned it to each other before (briefly, a long time ago, not as some big event). This is certainly far from "the one key to a happy marriage!", but it's a brick in the house. It generally fits into the larger social IQ element of thinking a…

Me and my wife joke about getting divorced all the time, and we've been happily married for 15 years. Maybe that joke wouldn't be appropriate for your marriage, but I'm not really into people giving absolute truths about other peoples lives and pretending like they're gospel. Every relationship is different, and there will be different relationship norms for everyone. It's one thing to tell people that you should act…

see also: parenting advice

There are very few "always apply" pieces of advice for these incredibly complex and distinct relationships, but we love to apply our single data point to the entire universe anyway.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#260

Post by justin_oaks »

pyb wrote: post #169
groby_b wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. And it only gets worse as your scope grows. There comes a point where you'll say something like "Huh, that looks interesting, I wonder what would happen if X", just because you still have some engineering thinking left in you, and three weeks later you'll get word that somebody spun up a working group to investigate X. If you ever wondered why manager emails to a large team always look super-formal? We've touche…

That's because some managers do express their instructions like this, by dropping "hints".

Not quite the same thing, but this reminds me of my last boss who would send me what seemed to be a random comment about our infrastructure or code. Or maybe he would send an article about something that happened at another company.

I had to guess at what he meant by it. Did he think I didn't already know about what he sent? Did he want me to take a specific action about the situation?

It was super annoying, and of course I usually had to ask point-blank: "Did you want me to take a specific action about XYZ?"

Heaven forbid he actually ask me "Can you do XYZ?" or "Do you think XYZ would be helpful in our organization?"

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