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Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#191

Post by vorpalhex »

DecoPerson wrote: post #66

I grew up believing having thick skin was really important. I took this to heart, and now nothing phases me (and I’ve been in a variety of nasty situations that confirmed this). I realize this is not the norm, but I wish it was. Avoiding trigger words and peoples’ sensitivities is frustrating and further complicates complex discussions. I’m not saying we should be robots. I still have feelings. If someone I love show…

There's shades of gray here. One of the issues of threatening to fire a subordinate is that you very much can, that being fired is a high anxiety issue for most people, and even if they have thick skin you're still moving towards a more hostile environment. I have thick skin, but I'm still going to treat someone who is joking about my livelihood negatively.

That's a separate issue from someone being triggered or emotionally hurt because they read a book or a professor talked accurately about a historical event. That's a case of not being thick skinned enough for reality.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#192

Post by [deleted] »

Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

[deleted]

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#193

Post by RobPfeifer »

Definitely don’t joke about it - but people should be aware that poor performance or behavior won’t be tolerated. The best employees generally appreciate that meritocracy is taken seriously.

Along those lines, advice to new managers: you should let people go if there isn’t a good mutual fit.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#194

Post by tinyhouse »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #167
tinyhouse wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean not to joke about it in front of other people? I agree of course. But between you two? seriously... A married couple should be able to talk freely, including about things they don't like. No need to create policies in advance like it's a work relationship between employee/manager. I would worry if my married life looked like a work relationship.

As a man who's been married for 15+ years, I would absolutely advise young couples to consider the disciplines and policies they expect their relationship to abide by in much the same way managers and employees discuss their policies and procedures. "Talk freely", yes, but also, as this article so correctly points out, understand the effect your language has on your relationships (direct reports, friends, spouses, fa…

> My wife and I decided, before we got married, that divorce was off the table for us.

Well, you can decide whatever you want before you get married. People change, things happen, it's called life...

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#195

Post by C1sc0cat »

_gfrc wrote: post #14

This is along the lines of "Ha, taking half the day off, are we?" when somebody leaves a little bit earlier than usual. It sounds like (just) a bad joke, but it has severe consequences for your working relationship. I get that it's tempting to make jokes when you start managing for your old team members. Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that your relationship will change. It will only make it m…

And in Salaried organisations it shows a disconnect from how professional's work, and Disrespects the employee as well.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#197

Post by MAGZine »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #112

I know the tech community likes to hate on company policies and bureaucracy, but this is exactly why you need SOME rules - to protect employees from bad managers. If you have a process in place that managers must follow in order to terminate an employee, employees don't have to be afraid of tasteless jokes about firing. If there is a process that involves the employee (like a PIP), you also don't have to be afraid th…

Pardon me saying so, though the base vacation policy seems middling in generosity. It strikes me that maybe the unlimited policy didn't work for facet because of that.

essentially: including company holidays in PTO calculation is lame. It's essentially forced PTO, not vacation. I'd consider your vacation policy to be about three weeks, not five, which is "just ok." It's enough for a two-week vacation and some time off for christmas. If your unlimited vacation policy expectation was actually three weeks of vacation, then I could see why it didn't really work for you.

Overall, I think metered is better than unmetered if enough volume is given. I don't know how hard Facet negotiates on extra PTO, but from the baseline offering, I think I could take more in unlimited systems.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#198

Post by ashtonkem »

I find that there are two aspects of good management that aren’t talked about enough.

First, power. Managers have explicit and implicit power, and you should understand both. Joking about firing someone is an abuse of your explicit power, but you should also be careful about excessive use of your ability to issue direct orders. Similarly, be aware how the implicit power of a manager affects conversations, and do little things like vote last to give others a chance to speak before they know where you’ve landed.

Secondly, good management is a lot of emotional labor. A portion of the emotional well being of your team is your problem, especially around things related to work itself. If managing is emotional labor, then do try to not make your job harder by freaking your directs out.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#199

Post by Hamuko »

OliverJones wrote: post #108

This is REALLY good advice. When you become a manager, you suddenly become all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful about peoples' jobs, pay, bonuses, benefits, time off, assignments, promotions, all that stuff. You're actually not all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful. You're only part of a management team. But you will NEVER convince your direct reports you're not. Even if you just started being a manager toda…

>do not even say "I'll try to get you a raise" because then if you can't deliver, the person will always wonder why you didn't do it. Even if what you said wasn't a promise, it sounds like one.

But I don't really need to wonder why I didn't get a raise even if my direct manager tried to get me one and it's quite simple: upper management doesn't appreciate my work as much as my direct manager does.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#200

Post by munchbunny »

dudul wrote: post #42
kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

Do you have significant amount of control? Maybe I've been lucky to be part of mostly healthy organizations, but even managers have to justify/explain decisions. Either be for termination, compensation adjustment, reassigning to a different team, etc. I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimi…

I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimited firing power and I still need to regroup with HR when it comes to that.

Having that system in place isn't enough. You need that system to have teeth, and you need to have someone with as much power as you who will review your decisions and play devil's advocate.

In many teams I've seen with documentation and HR hurdles, they're not real hurdles, they're just there so that there's a paper trail at all. That's because:

1. Most people in the company including the manager's boss and possibly even most teammates of the employee don't see enough of the employee's work, so it's often the manager's word vs. employee's. A bad manager will exploit that, intentionally or unintentionally.

2. When in doubt, the management hierarchy tends to side with the manager on things, because they by default trust the manager more than the employee and their view of the facts of the situation usually comes from the manager. A bad manager will intentionally or unintentionally editorialize the facts on their way up the hierarchy.

3. HR tends to avoid making waves. The only time I've seen HR (excuse the metaphor) plant the flag on the hill they intend to die on, it's because the person being fired or managed out was a protected class of worker. I have never seen HR push back just because the manager had insufficient reasons or suspect reasoning. A bad manager will just shove decisions through HR, intentionally or unintentionally.

In all of those places, there were systems in place where managers had to document those decisions, but there wasn't real accountability, so the systems were nominal at best.

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