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No Recent Automation Revolution

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Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#181
post #14

I thought about this article in context of the recently reposted piece "There’s No Fire Alarm for Artificial General Intelligence" [1]. While it may be true that we haven't been able to automate new kinds of jobs, maybe we are just moments away from having an AGI that would make that kind of automation easy. That would contradict this article's claim that the narrative around an incoming automation revolution is bull…

> maybe we are just moments away from having an AGI that would make that kind of automation easy What evidence do we have for being closer to AGI today than we were twenty years ago? My point isn't that AGI is useless. But it's currently an article of faith. Faith is fine. Faith is essential. But isn't a good way to make huge allocations of resources.

From my perspective, there are essentially two directions from which we can reach AGI.

One is that we may gain sufficient understanding how minds work and become able to implement one. IMHO it's a reasonable assumption that we currently have sufficient hardware capability to make the proper computing power for a mind with human-equivalent intelligence if only we knew how that mind software should be structured, but we simply don't really know how minds work, how they should work, and how to build them. There's lot of work being done there, some knowledge is being gained, but it seems that incremental advances won't be sufficient and progress will happen only in the case of a major breakthrough which we can't predict or expect any time soon - or, possibly, never; there certainly are people arguing that.

The second direction, on the other hand, does not presume a theoretical understanding of how intelligent minds truly work on a high level, but refers to brute force and/or simulation of low level constructs in human brains which we can understand and implement without needing a theoretical breakthrough. This approach requires immense computational power far beyond our current capability, so it's completely unrealistic to attempt in the near future - but twenty years of Moore's law has brought us twenty years closer to a brute-force solution to AGI. If we look at the estimates made in 2000 or earlier (I seem to recall reading brain-brute-force estimates from 1980s but I can't find them now. Perhaps Kurzweil was writing something like this already back then?) about the expected requirements for computing power and the expected progress, then we're pretty much on track; the computing power lines cross at something like 2050-2060; any hopes of "GAI in 2020" were based on the first approach which requires a breakthrough in understanding.

So from this perspective AGI is inevitable even without any progress whatsoever in "true intelligence" research, as long as our physics research and engineering keeps delivering improvements to raw compute power. We'll reach that point someday, likely within my lifetime, even without a breakthrough. But if we do start to understand how minds should be properly constructed, then that can easily shave many orders of magnitude off of the computing power requirements, and accelerate the arrival of GAI by decades.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#182
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ted Chiang made a similar point a few years back. (well not that phallic, but also about psychological projection as a reason for the AI fear) "This summer, Elon Musk spoke to the National Governors Association and told them that “AI is a fundamental risk to the existence of human civilization.” Doomsayers have been issuing similar warnings for some time, but never before have they commanded so much visibility.[...]A…

I don't think that no-holds-barred capitalism is the likeliest outcome for a superintelligent AI, but it is the one we need to be the most vigilant of. The abstract mathematician AI could just be allowed to live out its peaceful life proving ever-more-obscure theorems.

The mathematician AI may just as well decide to use the entire planet as fuel for its compute capacity.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unearned income is unfulfilling and the people who think they earned it resent it being taken from them, even if it's only particularly large because there's a big market to sell into and a big winner effect in the market structure. I don't know the answers here but they don't look like free market capitalism or redistributive socialist utopia, and actually I think this axis or spectrum is an actively harmful frame f…

Unearned income is unfulfilling in the context of a default assumption that the ability to earn an income is a valid measure of worth. There are other, better, measures.

Making something that other people are willing to reward with the fruits of their own labour is about as honest a social measure of worth as you can get outside of friends and family.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#184

1999-2019 is not the interesting period of automation. I'm surprised the authors think it's even relevant. 2020-2040 will be the period to watch.

1999-2019 has created massive technological capability for automation, which has been significantly underutilized mostly due to the rapid progress of globalization and offshoring of labor.

2020-2040 could have massive automation just with today's tech as soon as it's economically worthwhile - i.e. if you're not competing with workers who'll slave all day in dangerous conditions for peanuts. In 2000, we couldn't automate many jobs, in 2020 we choose not to automate them.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also in the customer service segment, we continue to accelerate the move to wipe out fast food jobs. Four million people work in fast food restaurants in the US. I'll be surprised if around 1/4 to 1/3 of those jobs don't vanish this decade. That is part of the automation revolution and it is underway. Just the process of automating ordering at fast food restaurants as we already easily can, will remove several hundre…

The sceptic in me wonders how much capital the fast food industry is willing to invest to replace cheap labor. I'm not really arguing with you just reflecting on my own experiences with current start of the art tech. "Did you say at fries to that?" No "Added 27 orders of fries, anything else" Arghhhh!

They're not willing to invest much, but the required hardware is getting cheaper all the time, and the required software has enormous economies of scale - you can spread the development cost across many thousands of restaurants worldwide.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#186

Is it just me or does it feel like this timeframe was too short? Personally, I expect the largest disruptor of jobs to come from autonomous driving, but we're still 5-10+ years from seeing that hitting the ground. As far as today is concerned, I largely agree. ETFs BOTZ and ROBO have increased, but not in such a way that would suggest huge automation revolution.

In the meantime, the disruptor for driving jobs has been the race to the bottom; services like Uber, Lyft, etc popping up, decimating the taxi industry by having their not-employees compete with each other for work, driving the prices down while they laugh all the way to the bank - they get their cut anyway. While those jobs haven't been automated away as such, they are being priced away.

>while they laugh all the way to the bank

Uber has been consistently losing money every single year.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#187
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really makes me sad that jobs are seen as inherently valuable. The way you phrase it, 'provide jobs', feels like jobs are something needed. Of course, in the current setup, this is true, but there are so many boring and hard jobs (worked by people who are yet poor) that we shouldn't mourn once we manage to get rid of them. I want an economy where we can celebrate automation and distribute the profits evenly.

Unearned income is unfulfilling and the people who think they earned it resent it being taken from them, even if it's only particularly large because there's a big market to sell into and a big winner effect in the market structure. I don't know the answers here but they don't look like free market capitalism or redistributive socialist utopia, and actually I think this axis or spectrum is an actively harmful frame f…

Currency for things that are currently intangible.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#188
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really makes me sad that jobs are seen as inherently valuable. The way you phrase it, 'provide jobs', feels like jobs are something needed. Of course, in the current setup, this is true, but there are so many boring and hard jobs (worked by people who are yet poor) that we shouldn't mourn once we manage to get rid of them. I want an economy where we can celebrate automation and distribute the profits evenly.

Unearned income is unfulfilling and the people who think they earned it resent it being taken from them, even if it's only particularly large because there's a big market to sell into and a big winner effect in the market structure. I don't know the answers here but they don't look like free market capitalism or redistributive socialist utopia, and actually I think this axis or spectrum is an actively harmful frame f…

Things become more fulfilling when you see everyone else doing them, such as raising kids.

There are so many things people could be doing which are not compensated by the market and corporations. “Leaning in and earning $1 instead of 70c” is a meme that corporations use to get more humans to trade quality time with parents and kids for them. [1] Why don’t we ask about “Leaning out and spending more time with our families?” [2]

Open source

Science

Philosophy

Family

Personal development

Volunteering in community

You’ve been CONDITIONED to think that large corporations are better ways to allocate your time and organize us all. That’s why many in NYC lamented when Amazon was not given tax breaks to come to our city. It’s almost as if we need Bezos’ company to organize ourselves an our time so we can get paid the money.

Society spends tons on fossil fuels and commuting and for what? To sit in a chair 30 miles away?

1. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8

2. http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=286

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unearned income is unfulfilling in the context of a default assumption that the ability to earn an income is a valid measure of worth. There are other, better, measures.

Making something that other people are willing to reward with the fruits of their own labour is about as honest a social measure of worth as you can get outside of friends and family.

It's also not something that would be taken away by diverting excess productivity to covering people's basic needs. I can at least imagine a world where doing so spurs a renaissance of creativity and entrepreneurship, because, just like you said, people seem to have an innate need to try and do something productive with their time.

If there's a real social fear that I hold, it's that we'd suddenly have supply problems in certain segments of the labor market. I know I, for one, would never have taken that 2nd shift job working in the kitchen of an all night diner if I hadn't needed the money to buy food. I'd have spent that time working on some of the ideas I had for software projects instead.

Re: No Recent Automation Revolution

#190
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All things automation. Really a chainsaw is automation, and so is a compressor. Automation is a pen. They all remove work and increase efficiency. There are lots of examples which don't really count though, such as self-checkout, which have exactly the same amount of work left, only who works it is a different person.

A chainsaw, compressor or pen are examples of mechanisation, not automation. They replace part of the human effort needed for a job, making the remaining human effort even more valuable. Automation fully replaces human work for a given job. It's a difference in kind. However, automation may replace only some jobs in a value chain, making the remaining ones even more productive and valuable. A fully automated value ch…

The word "auto"(oneself), often used with meaning to do by itself.

Automation is a very broad term, which mechanization is a part, but not a requirement of.

Anything that moves work from human to other forces is automation, having a thing do things by itself. An automobile is the automating of our movement.

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