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Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

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Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#391
post #388
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only thing I can see facial recognition doing is causing police forces to constantly single out individuals for previous crimes by removing their anonymity from the police force. this doesn't improve safety it causes a feedback loop where the person targeted will struggle to move to a normal life.

Just to be clear, I’ not in favor of facial recognition. However as a society we need to make informed decision and not to pick some random cons just to dismiss ideas that we dont like. I would be very disappointed if engineer, even junior, showed your attitude towards problem solving.

> I would be very disappointed if engineer, even junior, showed your attitude towards problem solving.

What attitude is that exactly? Some semblance of a code of ethics? I think you are drastically underplaying the "random con" of a realtime facial recognition surveillance network of body and CCTV cameras.

People have to be confronted with the use cases of the technology they build prior to building it. Ignorance, naivety, and a post-hoc "I didn't know it would be use as such" is just ethical negligence.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#392

This has sufficient public momentum to prove that a plurality believes the current system does the public more harm than good. Of course, removing cops will reduce harm done by cops to the public. But it will also reduce harm done by cops to law breakers. Intuitively, I would expect the law breakers to benefit disproportionately, since the cops stated mission was to prevent law breaking and all. Statistics I've read…

I think it depends on how much crime was prevented by police, either through action (i.e. arresting someone) or by threat of action (i.e. police might show up).

Statistically, the chances the police in Minneapolis were going to catch someone who committed a crime against you are low. Using the 2011-2013 data from the FBI's crime report [1] (not cherry picked, it was the first available I could find, would love more up to date data), about 36% of murders were cleared. Property crimes are far worse, about 13%. So for murder, there is a 1 in 3 chance you got caught. For property crimes, roughly 1 in 8.

That's not a huge rate of getting criminals off the street. I don't know how criminals perceive the risk/benefit of those odds, and whether the drop will have a substantial impact.

My wild ass guess is that it won't shift the crime rate by an order of magnitude. I would be surprised if it doubled. I would expect the murder rate to stay nearly constant, and for property crimes to increase 30-50%. Broadly speaking, I would expect the number of people committing crimes to stay close to the same (maybe a slight increase), but the number of crimes per criminal to go up. There's still a finite limit to the number of houses you can rob in a day, though. Your chances of getting caught before were 1 in 8, even if there is no police, it only has a few percent to drop before we start hitting the bottom in the form of the percentage of burglars shot by homeowners.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side of that extreme, you'll take cops filling innocent people with lead?

For every wrong shooting, there's what, maybe a hundred righteous ones? A thousand? Yes, I'll take it for now, and advocate for improvements.

Going off the Washington Post's data, there were 1,003 police shootings in 2019. Before I break it down, these numbers overlap. If you want to see the non-overlapping data, feel free to check out https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic... and filter it any way you'd like.

55 of those were against unarmed people, and a further 29 were against people with toy weapons. So 84 of those were undeniably wrong.

334 shootings were against people fleeing the scene of a crime (by foot, car or other). I can't see any way that shooting someone fleeing the scene of a crime is not a wrong shooting. Perhaps legally, it is allowed, but I find that hard to morally justify.

200 of those shootings were people with mental illness, and I would question whether the police approach of shouting commands and waving guns exacerbated the situation. I will concede, though, that being mentally ill doesn't automatically make it a wrong shooting.

173 of those shootings were against people with knives. I would frankly expect police to have better solutions than shooting someone with a knife. Again, I can't say how many they could have resolved peacefully because I'm not going to read all the reports, but that seems high.

This is all to say, I think 100 rightful shootings per wrong shooting is high. Even if we only count unarmed or toy weapons as unjustified shootings, it's far closer to 10 rightful shootings per wrong shooting.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#394
post #332
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you possibly think so when there are about 25 police killings in Germany in the last 30 years and about 25 police killings in the US in the last month?

Many people won't like this, but I cannot explain this phenomenon other than that it's the result of years of normalizing gun ownership. Shootings are a very real and somewhat regular occurrence in the US. Here in Germany, it's literally not an issue people worry about. When was the last time you saw a gun anywhere in Germany? The majority of Germans would probably say in the holster of a policeman or possibly someon…

> Shootings are a very real and somewhat regular occurrence in the US. Here in Germany, it's literally not an issue people worry about. When was the last time you saw a gun anywhere in Germany?

There was a shooting in February https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanau_shootings. Germany is also in the top 25 per capita for civilian gun ownership http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/T-Briefing-Pap...

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#395
The idea that a city council can make a rash decision that will drastically impact the safety of citizens, I'm sorry requires a vote.

This is virtue signalling based on terrible statistics and it's also an invitiation to harm citizens and businesses.

Every council person's competience is called into question at this point.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#396
post #8

"Dissolve the organization and start over from scratch" is an under-used solution in American life, even in the private sector. Apparently Camden, NJ did a version of this in 2013 with a fair amount of success: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-04/how-camde...

Indeed, Americans need to realize that almost everything about our society is a bad first draft, in need of prompt replacement. People reflexively defend existing institutions, but the more I've thought about it over the years, the more I've realized there's almost no aspect of American life worth preserving. Police departments might be a good place to start, but most American cities also need to address structural d…

big surprise, somebody at hacker news who hates america and says none of it is worth preserving.

And I guess I could say the same about every country in Africa. NOTHING WORTH PRESERVING. Oh look suddenly people have their eyes bulging out.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only those with major political connections get CCWs in Santa Clara county, even 20 years ago.

This is true. However, the parent didn't specify who the person was or where he lived. So while unlikely it is still possible.

It specifically referred to the boss working in Cupertino, CA.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every wrong shooting, there's what, maybe a hundred righteous ones? A thousand? Yes, I'll take it for now, and advocate for improvements.

Going off the Washington Post's data, there were 1,003 police shootings in 2019. Before I break it down, these numbers overlap. If you want to see the non-overlapping data, feel free to check out https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic... and filter it any way you'd like. 55 of those were against unarmed people, and a further 29 were against people with toy weapons. So 84 of those were undeniably…

This is terribly naive and misguided towards the realities of violence.

> 55 of those were against unarmed people, and a further 29 were against people with toy weapons. So 84 of those were undeniably wrong.

What makes you believe that these were all undeniably wrong? Are you operating under some sort of Wild West moral code where you can't shoot an unarmed person? Reality is not a movie. If somebody twice your size is choking you to death, would you pray for a gun to stop them with, or say "he doesn't have a weapon so I'm not allowed to shoot him because reasons, guess I'll just die then"? I'm baffled that people continue to repeat this nonsensical thinking constantly.

People who have toy weapons and are shot by police are frequently shot because they did a very convincing job of making the toy look like a functional firearm and handling it as if it is real and they intend to shoot the officer with it. Could be suicide-by-cop or being stupid and assuming the cops will back off if they act scary enough, hard to say. Many imitation firearms are difficult to tell apart from the real thing even up close and calm in good lighting. If somebody is acting like they want to kill you and pulling what looks like a gun, you would be foolish to second-guess whether it is real, and you will be too slow and will likely be shot if it is real if you take the time to wonder.

Some of the people who are completely unarmed are also shot for similar reasons. Someone may not actually have a gun, but if, on a traffic stop, they stop suddenly in an unexpected place, dash out of the car while staying low and moving towards cover while trying to pull something out of your pants, you would be foolish to assume they don't have a gun.

Many situations similar to these can be and are de-escalated by skilled officers. Sadly, some situations are just hopeless, and some officers are not as skilled or patient as they could be.

Note also the reverse: If shooting someone who is unarmed is always wrong, no matter what they were doing at the time, is shooting someone who is armed always right? The police do encounter many armed individuals, and often manage to resolve the situation without shooting them. The situation and what the suspect is doing is what matters for justification, not what they are armed with.

> 334 shootings were against people fleeing the scene of a crime (by foot, car or other). I can't see any way that shooting someone fleeing the scene of a crime is not a wrong shooting. Perhaps legally, it is allowed, but I find that hard to morally justify.

Usually the legal standard is something like the police can only fire a gun at a "fleeing felon" if they can justify that his continuing to be at-large is a serious danger to the community. Sounds all right to me. I haven't reviewed all of those cases, but I'd bet that most of them are a lot more justified than you are imagining.

> 200 of those shootings were people with mental illness, and I would question whether the police approach of shouting commands and waving guns exacerbated the situation. I will concede, though, that being mentally ill doesn't automatically make it a wrong shooting.

Yup. I'm not a mental illness expert. Maybe some more cases could be successfully talked down by somebody with more skill. A lot of cases already are though, but they don't make it into these numbers. It would be nice if we could help everybody with mental illnesses in a better way, but unfortunately, some of them are just completely off the deep end, doing terrible things, and can only be stopped with lethal force.

> 173 of those shootings were against people with knives. I would frankly expect police to have better solutions than shooting someone with a knife. Again, I can't say how many they could have resolved peacefully because I'm not going to read all the reports, but that seems high.

You would expect wrong. I think you better watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upxfo_jBrDE There's a bunch more that show the same idea.

It's been tested a great many times that an attacker with a knife can close roughly 21' of distance and still stab a defender with a holstered handgun before the defender can draw and fire at the attacker. Note that the linked video considers the defense a "success" if the defender is able to get a round off at the attacker before getting hit with the knife, but guns are not death rays, and an attacker who has been shot, even multiple times, can still stab you to death before they have to stop or slow down.

> This is all to say, I think 100 rightful shootings per wrong shooting is high. Even if we only count unarmed or toy weapons as unjustified shootings, it's far closer to 10 rightful shootings per wrong shooting.

100 or higher is likely to be closer to reality for any reasonable definition of justified. Unless you do silly things like make blanket assumptions that any shooting of an unarmed person is unjustified.

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