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Largest Known Maya Structure Found

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Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#91
post #89
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given his own cultural frame, and what he witnessed This type of fashionable moral relativism can be used to justify any atrocity. From an objective point of view, he could've stopped the child sacrifices without committing genocide, both cultural and literal. Sure, it may be that from his perspective that the genocide was necessary, but that is the case for every perpetrator of genocide in history. I take it that…

You’re mixing cultural genocide with actual genocide. Going from the other direction, if all information on Nazi ideology where removed from history, would we have Neo Nazis today? That may seem abhorrent and or impossible, but other ideologies have been erased from history and outside of the academic context that could be a net positive. Ideology’s that promote ritual human sacrifice could be inherently dangerous by…

> You’re mixing cultural genocide with actual genocide.

The Spanish conquest of the New World was undeniably a genocide in the literal mass murder sense. In a sense it was a continuation of the same genocide against Muslims and Jews that the Spanish committed during the Reconquista. However you want to categorize what he and other Spaniards did, it was undeniably and objectively morally wrong.

> Going from the other direction, if all information on Nazi ideology where removed from history, would we have Neo Nazis today?

Your analogy does not hold, the equivalent to de Landa's actions would be to destroy the entire Western canon and any written trace of the German language in response to the Holocaust. From your comments you seem to treat the entirety of Maya culture as atomic and inseperable from human sacrifice, while conversely you have conveniently seperated out Nazism from the whole of German culture. This double standard where the faults of Western cultures are treated as redeemable while the faults of other cultures are treated as immutable traits inherent to that culture is what led to de Landa's actions in the first place.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#92
post #91
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re mixing cultural genocide with actual genocide. Going from the other direction, if all information on Nazi ideology where removed from history, would we have Neo Nazis today? That may seem abhorrent and or impossible, but other ideologies have been erased from history and outside of the academic context that could be a net positive. Ideology’s that promote ritual human sacrifice could be inherently dangerous by…

> You’re mixing cultural genocide with actual genocide. The Spanish conquest of the New World was undeniably a genocide in the literal mass murder sense. In a sense it was a continuation of the same genocide against Muslims and Jews that the Spanish committed during the Reconquista. However you want to categorize what he and other Spaniards did, it was undeniably and objectively morally wrong. > Going from the other…

An individual priest did a specific thing which is separate from an actual genocide that took place. He could have just as easily done something else which would not have impacted the genocide. It’s simply sloppy thinking to associate them.

Maya culture is a sub set of South American cultures. So, the scope is narrower than your suggesting. Still let’s go with removing all of Germanic culture and language, the point still stands.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#93
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wheelbarrows (Both European, and Chinese) are very useful, and do not require large animals to pull. They aren't super-great in hilly terrain, though.

Human pulled carts are common, too. I live on a very steep hill, and use a dolly a lot to bring something up. It's a heluva lot easier than carrying stuff. Not even close. I can easily manage 4-5 times the weight on the dolly than I could carry. Even navigating stairs with a dolly is easier than carrying a heavy weight, and much safer, too. I'm utterly unconvinced by Jared Diamond's claim that lack of pack animals ma…

> useful to make a road to it

A rail road even. Dogs and goats are useful for pulling sleds over a rail. Or a trail.

I agree that the size of the animal doesn't makes wheels less worthwhile.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#94
post #92
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re mixing cultural genocide with actual genocide. The Spanish conquest of the New World was undeniably a genocide in the literal mass murder sense. In a sense it was a continuation of the same genocide against Muslims and Jews that the Spanish committed during the Reconquista. However you want to categorize what he and other Spaniards did, it was undeniably and objectively morally wrong. > Going from the other…

An individual priest did a specific thing which is separate from an actual genocide that took place. He could have just as easily done something else which would not have impacted the genocide. It’s simply sloppy thinking to associate them. Maya culture is a sub set of South American cultures. So, the scope is narrower than your suggesting. Still let’s go with removing all of Germanic culture and language, the point…

Fine, an individual priest committed cultural genocide and torture. It's still morally wrong and indefensible.

It's even sloppier thinking to somehow justify this by treating one small aspect of a culture as immutable and inherent to the whole of that culture, while hypocritically not doing the same for a culture you're more familiar with.

EDIT: GP added a second paragraph.

> Maya culture is a sub set of South American cultures. So, the scope is narrower than your suggesting. Still let’s go with removing all of Germanic culture and language, the point still stands

You have no point. Nazism has been removed without the destruction of German culture and language, human sacrifice could've been removed without the destruction of Mayan culture.

And no, the scope is not narrower. Mayan culture has as about as much in common with other South American cultures like the Inca as Western culture has to do with East-Asian culture.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#95
post #94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An individual priest did a specific thing which is separate from an actual genocide that took place. He could have just as easily done something else which would not have impacted the genocide. It’s simply sloppy thinking to associate them. Maya culture is a sub set of South American cultures. So, the scope is narrower than your suggesting. Still let’s go with removing all of Germanic culture and language, the point…

Fine, an individual priest committed cultural genocide and torture. It's still morally wrong and indefensible. It's even sloppier thinking to somehow justify this by treating one small aspect of a culture as immutable and inherent to the whole of that culture, while hypocritically not doing the same for a culture you're more familiar with. EDIT: GP added a second paragraph. > Maya culture is a sub set of South Americ…

We are talking about a continuation of a huge line of the same thing that happened in Europe of thousands of years. It’s not really a question foreign cultures, just the clash between different cultures.

> Nazism has been removed without the destruction of German culture and language

Nope, you can still read Mein Kampf today and many still believe in it.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#96
post #95
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, an individual priest committed cultural genocide and torture. It's still morally wrong and indefensible. It's even sloppier thinking to somehow justify this by treating one small aspect of a culture as immutable and inherent to the whole of that culture, while hypocritically not doing the same for a culture you're more familiar with. EDIT: GP added a second paragraph. > Maya culture is a sub set of South Americ…

We are talking about a continuation of a huge line of the same thing that happened in Europe of thousands of years. It’s not really a question foreign cultures, just the clash between different cultures. > Nazism has been removed without the destruction of German culture and language Nope, you can still read Mein Kampf today and many still believe in it.

> We are talking about a continuation of a huge line of the same thing that happened in Europe of thousands of years. It’s not really a question foreign cultures, just the clash between different cultures.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to by "the same thing", but if you're referring to the cultural genocide committed against pagans in Europe by Christians, then ironically that helped fuel the type of German nationalism that gave rise to Nazism. The Nazis famously used the Massacre of Verden committed by Charlemagne against the Saxons as historical justification for their ideology[0].

> Nope, you can still read Mein Kampf today and many still believe in it.

Nazism is not practiced to any significant extent, unless you want to argue that the existence of neo-Nazis warrants the destruction of all Germanic languages.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#97
post #67

It's tragic how little we know about the Maya compared to what we could have known. Thousands of books were destroyed, primarily by one Spanish bishop, and only four survive today[1]. If that hadn't of happened, it's possible we could have known as much about the Maya as we do about the Ancient Greeks. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices

The destruction of those codixes is, without a doubt, one of the greatest acts of cultural vandalism in history. Absolutely tragic. At the same time, I've read a bit more about that incident, and... this is probably not politically correct to say, but I did develop some sympathy for that bishop. Yes, he was a religious zealot who couldn't distinguish other cultures from "satanism". But also, well, the Maya were in a…

You have a point, even today I would consider the mass sacrifice of children to be “satanic” if I believed in the concept.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#98

What many people do not know is that the Maya are still around, mostly in Guatemala. There's a recent movie about the challenges affecting modern Mayans called Ixcanul, watch it if you can.

huh? Nearly every southern Mexican is Mayan.

Guatemala has ~40% of the total Maya population so that makes sense.

Are the Maya communities in Mexico still speaking Maya languages?

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe we even have evidence whether or not the olmec culture had a state. If you're looking for a better narrative, "time" is a decent one. I don't believe there's much evidence of ergonomic hand carts until pretty much modern times. Personally I'm not holding my breath for a decent explanation, ever, especially when the wheel toys are concentrated in an area known for not preserving wood well sans mudslide…

> were made of wood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubljana_Marshes_Wheel Wheel & axle made of wood, for a two wheel push cart. Spend some time using an ordinary dolly to move heavy boxes around, then try carrying them. There's just no comparison. Besides, it's one thing to say that wheel technology is gated by metals technology, quite another to say it is gated by the existence of pack animals.

I’m not quite sure of your point—the cart was obviously found in a swamp and would have been poorly suited to hauling things up “steep hills”. I would at least have used a spoked wheel if I were arguing the obvious need of a handcart, the weight and stability difference over rough terrain is quite large. That, or provided video evidence you want to haul a solid wood cart up a steep hill with groceries.

I’m pointing out projecting modern needs backwards out of speculation isn’t likely to yield much understanding of why someone didn’t invent a handcart in precolumbian mesoamerica. Jared Diamond at least compares the material conditions of the two sets of continents—that seems like a decent tactic for approaching the past, even if I do have large complaints with his confident narratives.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

huh? Nearly every southern Mexican is Mayan.

Guatemala has ~40% of the total Maya population so that makes sense. Are the Maya communities in Mexico still speaking Maya languages?

Yes! The biggest community is in Yucatan with over 800K speakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayan_languages#:~:text=Yucate....
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