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Largest Known Maya Structure Found

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Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#71

Post by nkoren »

dntbnmpls wrote: post #69
nkoren wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of those codixes is, without a doubt, one of the greatest acts of cultural vandalism in history. Absolutely tragic. At the same time, I've read a bit more about that incident, and... this is probably not politically correct to say, but I did develop some sympathy for that bishop. Yes, he was a religious zealot who couldn't distinguish other cultures from "satanism". But also, well, the Maya were in a…

[flagged]

Hey, I'm neither a Catholic nor a monotheist. I've got no personal dog in this fight, except that as a rule, my sympathies are generally aligned with indigenous peoples. And yeah, people can be super hypocritical: mote in your eye vs. the beam in my own, et cetera. And yeah, I agree that the genocidal excess commited by the conquistadores was, taken as a whole, the worst thing happening in the Americas at the time.

But Diego de Landa wasn't taking it in as a whole. He was just having his personal experience. There's little reason to doubt the child sacrifice incident: that kind of thing absolutely did occur, and is well-attested both textually and archeologically. He didn't have the 10,000' view of the American genocide: he had a personal view, and he acted accordingly.

Usually I'm not this sympathetic. When I read first-hand accounts of Pizzaro's conquest of the Inca at Cajamarca, for example, I'm appalled. Pizzaro's guys take umbrage at the Incan' Emporer disrespecting a bible by throwing it, incomprehending, on the ground. In retribution for this, they delight -- positively delight -- in immediately slaughtering several thousand unarmed members of the emperor's court. It's absolutely sick and indefensible, driven by a religious zealotry that (IMHO) had stripped them of their basic humanity.

I'd always assumed that Diego de Landa was a similar kind of zealot, but when I read more, I found that it wasn't so simple. That's all I'm saying. Even when things are black and white at a high level, there can be greys in the details.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#72

Post by nkoren »

kilroy123 wrote: post #68
nkoren wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of those codixes is, without a doubt, one of the greatest acts of cultural vandalism in history. Absolutely tragic. At the same time, I've read a bit more about that incident, and... this is probably not politically correct to say, but I did develop some sympathy for that bishop. Yes, he was a religious zealot who couldn't distinguish other cultures from "satanism". But also, well, the Maya were in a…

That's a pretty fair stance. I've actually been to Southern Mexico where their descendants live today. Even today, to my American frame, the indigenous people are strange. But that's what drew me to check out some of their villages. I highly recommend these places out! Their churches which mix Catholicism with their own believes are very far out.

You don't even need to go to Southern Mexico for that. There's a small enclave town in Phoenix, Arizona, called Guadalupe. It's a Mexican / native community. In the centre of town, there's a public square flanked by two Catholic churches.[1] One is a very traditional Catholic church. The other is a syncretic church which (according to people I knew in the community) mixed in many elements of Yaqui spirituality.

The survival of native spirituality, even within syncretic religion, is always somehow reassuring to me, given how much cultural vandalism occurred during the colonisation of the Americas.

1: https://www.google.com/maps/@33.3690036,-111.9644457,3a,15.4...

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#73

Post by dntbnmpls »

nkoren wrote: post #71
dntbnmpls wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Hey, I'm neither a Catholic nor a monotheist. I've got no personal dog in this fight, except that as a rule, my sympathies are generally aligned with indigenous peoples. And yeah, people can be super hypocritical: mote in your eye vs. the beam in my own, et cetera. And yeah, I agree that the genocidal excess commited by the conquistadores was, taken as a whole, the worst thing happening in the Americas at the time. B…

[flagged]

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#74

Post by gshdg »

The consistent underestimation of the capabilities and development of historic indigenous peoples outside Europe and the Middle East is both absurd and tragic. You’d think that by now archaeologists might have adjusted their assumptions.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#75

Post by JoeDaDude »

stevekemp wrote: post #52
colordrops wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of Lost Cities, I've been watching the 80s cartoon Mysterious Cities of Gold with my kids. Highly recommended. It's a lost gem about the time of conquistadors in southern and central America - well written for a kids show, entertaining for adults, continuous story arc like modern shows, and a nice mix of history and science fiction.

I remember watching (and loving) that as a child, and it was only somewhat recently that I learned it was inspired upon a book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Fifth Not a great read, but I was certainly feeling nostalgic when I finished it.

Here is a write up about the history behind The Mysterious Cities of Gold:

http://jeffzurita.com/2019/05/19/estevan-and-the-cities-of-g...

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#76

Post by GrumpyNl »

elboru wrote: post #9
meddlepal wrote: post #7

It's kind of impressive they accomplished so much without inventing the wheel... or has that been debunked and is just long outdated information?

Some wheeled toys have been found in Mexico, it’s not like the wheel was never invented. But The Americas didn’t have domesticable large animals that could be used to pull wheeled carriages (bisons were not domesticated at the time), that’s why the wheel was never used for that purpose. Indeed it’s very impressive how much they accomplished by themselves without the wheel, without big domesticated animals and without…

Is rolling stuff on logs considered using wheels?

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#77

Post by 082349872349872 »

ganzuul wrote: post #62
hymnsfm wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suggest reading the Book of Mormon. It's a fascinating record of the peoples of ancient America, specifically the Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites. Where these civilizations lived and fought (there are lots of battles in the book) is uncertain, but it's believed to be mainly Central and South America. Keep in mind that The Book of Mormon is a primarily a spiritual book: another testament of Jesus Christ. The Lord…

Other things you could accept on faith is that these are airfields; not monstrously huge ritual grounds. It's nice to be passionate about something and letting one's imagination run wild, but trying to pull others into it with reference to blind faith comes off as cultish.

Note that even "Ancient Aliens" doesn't ask their viewers to accept anything on blind faith.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#78

Post by Azametzin »

spaced-out wrote: post #27

It's tragic how little we know about the Maya compared to what we could have known. Thousands of books were destroyed, primarily by one Spanish bishop, and only four survive today[1]. If that hadn't of happened, it's possible we could have known as much about the Maya as we do about the Ancient Greeks. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices

As far as I know, the Incas had a lot of books, not the Mayans. The Spaniards burned them for considering heresy.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#79

Post by hliyan »

nkoren wrote: post #71
dntbnmpls wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Hey, I'm neither a Catholic nor a monotheist. I've got no personal dog in this fight, except that as a rule, my sympathies are generally aligned with indigenous peoples. And yeah, people can be super hypocritical: mote in your eye vs. the beam in my own, et cetera. And yeah, I agree that the genocidal excess commited by the conquistadores was, taken as a whole, the worst thing happening in the Americas at the time. B…

I read your original comment as a simple historical statement that did it's best to make it clear that it was speculation about a possible cause and not a justification. Not sure why the GP is reading a moral stance into it.

Re: Largest Known Maya Structure Found

#80

Post by [deleted] »

unixbeard1337 wrote: post #17
meddlepal wrote: post #7

It's kind of impressive they accomplished so much without inventing the wheel... or has that been debunked and is just long outdated information?

The hard thing isn't the wheel, it's the axle. For that, you need a precision that it's difficult to get without at least bronze tools.

[deleted]
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