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America is giving up on the pandemic?

theatlantic.com

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Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#591
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s crazy though is for the first time in my life I actually fear for the future existence of the US. I watched 9/11 in real time and that didn’t feel as much of a threat to our existence as this does. There’s an actual civil war movement among the extremists now. I don’t think that existed during the civil rights movement days, even. Nor even the Vietnam fallout.

I mean, people like to throw around race war occasionally now but I only hear about it from the far-right. Nobody on the far-left is advocating for the extreme violence. During the 1960s, I believe Malcolm X was ready to have a real war to defend Black Americans. Now, at worse the discord is about justifying some looting that has diminished.

>Nobody on the far-left is advocating for the extreme violence

I have seen many people talking about "burning the system to the ground".

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weirdly, hundreds of people were wandering around state capitols with much more dangerous looking weapons, and no cop shot them on site. It's almost like going by "perceived threat" (as determined after the fact by cops) is a giant hole that allows racial bias free reign.

In Rice's case, police were responding to reports of shots fired in the vicinity. By comparison, the protestors in Michigan (presumably this is what you were referring to) were attending a planned protest in a state with legal open carry. While it's fair to say that bias was a factor in Rice's shooting, and I'd agree, pointing to open carry protests as evidence of this may not be the most effective line of argument.…

You've made me challenge my preconceptions. Thanks for your reasonable and researched response.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#593
Trevor Bedford (Associate Professor in the Department of Epidemiology at the University of Washington) noted today that the protests will add 200-1100 deaths per day of protests: https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1269533303536664576.

Mapping Police Violence (https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/) notes that police killed 1098 people in 2019 in the US. Per the Washington Post, the figure is 1043 but that's specifically for shootings (which covers almost all officer involved deaths): https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic.... And in all likelihood, most of those situations were handled properly and professionally and the deaths were justified (without wrongdoing on the police's part).

So we've just taken on far more undeserved deaths due to irresponsible protesting and rioting than the very brutality we were outraged about in the first place! How was this even allowed? It is completely irrational to permit these protests, and to tolerate these super spreader events given the harsh restrictions we placed on our lives in response to COVID-19.

I cannot believe that healthcare professionals and public health officials are lining up to excuse the protests. This, just a couple weeks after they were all criticizing moderates/conservatives who wanted to see orders relaxed. The healthcare professionals and public officials who've jumped on the train of rationalizing their flip flopping are simply too afraid to admit that they're willing to tolerate the risks for activities and causes they align with, but they still want to force others to make sacrifices with the activities that they value. In other words, one set of rules for them, another set of rules for everyone else. I've lost faith in our elected officials, public institutions, healthcare providers, and academic bodies as a result of this hypocrisy and failure of logic.

A more fair and just handling of COVID would be to let every individual assess the risks and benefits of their activities themselves, as individuals, and let them go about their way. If a business wants to stay open, so be it. If a customer wants to visit a business, so be it. Those who are risk averse and afraid of exposure can choose to deal with that risk by impacting only their own lives by sheltering themselves.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#594
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're being flagrantly irresponsible. If nothing else, messaging and public trust are key parts of any epidemic response. Right now, a conservative might look at this letter and come away with the impression that this is a case of quarantine for thee but not for me. An opinion that wouldn't be unjustified: can you imagine them doing the same thing to provide cover for abortion protests? The right to religious gathe…

Or maybe there are just bigger problems than the virus right now.

That's what some people have been saying since February, yes.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#595
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission That's a shining example of weasel speak. They don't explicitly say it's not risky - because that would be plain lying, it is obviously risky - but they are saying they are not condemning it as risky. Which most people would take as implying it's not actually risky - even though they are not saying that. They…

The CDC revised their risk estimates towards the end of last month. "The fifth scenario is the CDC's "current best estimate about viral transmission and disease severity in the United States." In that scenario, the agency described its estimate that 0.4% of people who feel sick with Covid-19 will die. For people age 65 and older, the CDC puts that number at 1.3%. For people 49 and under, the agency estimated that 0.0…

In the very article you link to the case of New York is mentioned by Bergstrom, specifically to critique that estimate, and point that New York disproves it.

I verified that claim:

We know that the antibody tests in NYC gave the estimate of "all infected" of 20% of all. But there were around 20K deaths, and NYC has 8.3M population. Also even if we expect that the spread will stop once the 70% of population is infected the result is: 100e3 * 0.7 / 8e6 = 0.87%

Still much more than 0.4%. That it's closer to 1% matches all the statistics of the countries of the world that did a lot of testing compared to the number of cases and deaths.

Back to the article:

Bergstrom in the article: "Given that these parameter sets underestimate fatality by a substantial margin compared to current scientific consensus, this is deeply problematic."

In the same article, even CDC disclaims that their numbers are predictions:

"The scenarios are intended to advance public health preparedness and planning. They are not predictions or estimates of the expected impact of COVID-19" the CDC says.

So it seems you intentionally misinterpret CDC, given that it's all in the very article you linked.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#596
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In re: > They see Covid-19 as a nothing burger, and health experts giving these protestors a pass vindicates their belief. Four minutes later someone says just that: > by admitting there are exceptions, [public health experts] reveal that they were not being straight with us all along.

I never said I thought Covid-19 was a nothing-burger, and I have nothing to do with the right-wing online crazies. Nevertheless it is clear that public health experts have not been straight with us. You don't need to be a right-wing loon to see that their open letter contradicts what they have been saying until now. Why did you personally attack me and associate me with the 4chan nutters with no basis whatsoever?

> I never said I thought Covid-19 was a nothing-burger, and I have nothing to do with the right-wing online crazies.

I never said you did.

> Nevertheless it is clear that public health experts have not been straight with us.

Depends on the public health officials you listen to, eh?

> You don't need to be a right-wing loon to see that their open letter contradicts what they have been saying until now.

I agree. Mass protests during a pandemic are irresponsible although understandable, in my opinion, and the open letter people are talking about in this thread sounds to me to be pretty irresponsible as well, although I haven't read it.

I just watched a bunch of videos of demonstrations happening today all over the world. While my heart soared a little voice in the back of my head was saying "...but covid is loving this..."

> Why did you personally attack me and associate me with the 4chan nutters with no basis whatsoever?

I didn't attack you, I wasn't even responding to you. I was struck by the pattern match, that's all. I apologize for the offense, and wish you well.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're digressing from the core, indisputable truth: these protests, in the present environment, will result in a significant number of deaths. Sure we won't start to have a sense of just how many until a few more weeks have passed, but we can say with relative certainty it will be " significant ". The reason people are dodging this is because it makes these protests morally indefensible, on balance. This is terribly…

Are all the state-wide openings in May, the opening of casinos, and the festivities of Memorial Day Weekend, of which we are already seeing COVID impacts, more or less morally indefensible than the BLM protests? When all these other non-protest gatherings of people were taking place, were you this outraged? If the answer is no: explain yourself.

Yes they are morally indefensible. Many of those decisions didn't make sense to me and yes I expressed outrage about it to friends.

But your point is also a straw man. For the most part, there are still prohibitions on large gatherings of people. These protests have been blessed as an exception. Why? Because the government's hand was forced by political expediency. In essence, the government has failed to protect the people from themselves.

And let me flip the question on you: why do we need to protest so urgently now, during a global pandemic? Why can't it be postponed until after we've resolved that problem and can permit it to go about safely?

I'll answer that for you: BLM has found outsized effectiveness because of coronavirus. Because people have more time, and are feeling less economically secure, and are more emotionally vulnerable. They were better primed to respond to the movement and organizers are capitalizing on that at the direct expense of human lives, even if that isn't obvious to them.

Worst of all, history suggests that these protests and the consequent loss of life will buy Black people next to nothing. Categorically the wrong solution to a very complex problem.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists are no more qualified at discussing the trade-offs of economics and racial justice and policing than anyone else. By attempting to do so they politicize science and thereby reduce public trust in science. My problem with their letter is that they made a judgment about these trade-offs and attempted to portray it as a scientific one, when it really wasn't. Based on the data alone, there is no way to reach t…

> White supremacy is a lethal public health issue that predates and contributes to COVID-19. Black people are twice as likely to be killed by police compared to white people, but the effects of racism are far more pervasive. Black people suffer from dramatic health disparities in life expectancy, maternal and infant mortality, chronic medical conditions, and outcomes from acute illnesses like myocardial infarction an…

[deleted]

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#599
post #533
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What point are you trying to make? Systemic racism is way bigger than just police killings. Do you want to ignore the (non-lethal) evils of prejudice, and just play a numbers game with fatalities? From some back-of-the-envelope math, the average POC in America will still lose more years of their life from simply living in a racist society than from COVID-19. Life isn't a pissing contest of "my problem is bigger than…

>Systemic racism is way bigger than just police killings. A single protest movement isn't going to end systemic racism, no matter how large it becomes. Even revolutions don't end conservatism -- just ask Leon Trotsky. However, the coronavirus epidemic is here today and it may well be gone in a year. This may be the worst possible time for a protest movement since the Spanish Flu.

Yes but you can't plan these things. So here we are...

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What new rules specifically? And what rules were not in place for the armed all-white protests in Michigan, for instance?

For example, countries permitting residents to "gather in groups of 12", or "protest in groups of up to 100". For example, https://cchealth.org/press-releases/2020/0602-Businesses-Reo... Why create specialized rules for protests that allow an order of magnitude more people to gather than those allowed in a "close cohort" gathering?

All such advice/regulations is weighing the benefit of imposing the restriction vs. the cost of imposing such restriction.

And, importantly, all this is not in the context of individual risk, but population risk. The distinction is tricky but important, and one that trips most people up. For any single individual, the personal risk from COVID19 tends to be small, often seemingly vanishingly small. However, since we don't have immunity, it will affect everyone and even a small individual risk multiplied by (almost) everyone is a large impact on the population in terms of overall deaths.

Anyway, how many political protests have you attended in the last 10 years? How many social gatherings?

For me, it is easily 1:100, if not more. Thus, the aggregate transmission risk from protests is much smaller, therefore we can be more permissive of them. And it is the aggregate risk that policymakers care about.

On the other hand, political protest is considered a very, very fundamental right of our democracies, restricting it something to be done only with the greatest reluctance.

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