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America is giving up on the pandemic?

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Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#541

Post by whymauri »

cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #517
grey-area wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is no5 in the world for police homicides, just behind countries like the Philippines, Syria, Brazil. Not a record to be proud of - 1,536 in 2019 according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... Other countries manage to achieve numbers like 2 for Japan, 3 for the UK, 11 for Germany which is nowhere near even adjusted for population. American police kill more people per ca…

Do you think it's intellectually honest to compare countries with very, very low rates of firearms access to a country where firearms are available to anyone who wants one? You're comparing the USA, which has about 100k shootings per year, 36k deaths involving guns of which 33% (~12k) are homicides, to the UK which has 50-60 cases of homicide involving a gun per year. The fact is that the US police are far, far, far…

By all means, suggest a better country to draw a comparison with.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#542

Post by fwip »

kleer001 wrote: post #528
ken wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What point are you trying to make? Systemic racism is way bigger than just police killings. Do you want to ignore the (non-lethal) evils of prejudice, and just play a numbers game with fatalities? From some back-of-the-envelope math, the average POC in America will still lose more years of their life from simply living in a racist society than from COVID-19. Life isn't a pissing contest of "my problem is bigger than…

> Life isn't a pissing contest of "my problem is bigger than your problem". > Systemic racism is way bigger than just police killings. ?

The first means "it doesn't make sense to compare these."

The second means "Even though you're trying to compare these problems, you've massively underrepresented the impact of systemic racism by simplifying it to the number of police killings."

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#543

Post by scarmig »

noad wrote: post #530
scarmig wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're being flagrantly irresponsible. If nothing else, messaging and public trust are key parts of any epidemic response. Right now, a conservative might look at this letter and come away with the impression that this is a case of quarantine for thee but not for me. An opinion that wouldn't be unjustified: can you imagine them doing the same thing to provide cover for abortion protests? The right to religious gathe…

Or maybe there are just bigger problems than the virus right now.

Your comment is a case in point: the takeaway the general public will have from this letter is that the virus doesn't really matter, and you should feel free to disregard it if you can come up with a vaguely plausible reason why your particular circumstances mean you should be exempt from caring about it.

Which we kind of were at anyway, but now public health figures have given their signoff on that interpretation.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#544

Post by caconym_ »

twblalock wrote: post #535
caconym_ wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> White supremacy is a lethal public health issue that predates and contributes to COVID-19. Black people are twice as likely to be killed by police compared to white people, but the effects of racism are far more pervasive. Black people suffer from dramatic health disparities in life expectancy, maternal and infant mortality, chronic medical conditions, and outcomes from acute illnesses like myocardial infarction an…

> I wouldn't call it a "scientific conclusion" That's my point. If it's not scientific, then scientists should not have presented it as such.

Well, a point I've made elsewhere in this thread (possibly not here) is that I don't think they did claim it's an objectively truthful conclusion.

I can reason about moving a heavy object from my car to my house using the general knowledge that dropped objects fall downward and often break when they hit the ground; I don't need to whip out the graph paper and prove it.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#545

Post by AnimalMuppet »

garrickvanburen wrote: post #212

No, not giving up. Just reprioritized. All I think we’ve proven is that a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and far less comfortable with the police violence. There’s nothing in here about disregarding recommendations from epidemiologists. It’s about saying enough is enough on a persistent threat, not an acute one.

Some physicians noted that, for example, a whole lot of cancer screenings didn't get done in the last three months. There are healthcare consequences from the quarantine, and there will be (different) healthcare consequences from lifting it.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#546

Post by drusepth »

mrcorona wrote: post #120
DennisAleynikov wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no difference to covid, it doesn't ask 'oh were you protesting the right thing?'

5 Plain clothed police officers break into your house and execute your wife or daughter in their bed, then say it was a mistake and walk away scott-free (no charges)... Would you stay quiet and wait for the covid threat to die down before protesting or taking action?

>Would you stay quiet and wait for the covid threat to die down before protesting or taking action?

Absolutely. The only reason you'd ignore a pandemic and risk your life (and the lives of your friends and remaining family) is an expected and completely valid emotional response. That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do (or safe), though.

I wouldn't risk being directly responsible for killing more people (especially people I know and their circles) just to protest something a few months earlier than I should.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#547

Post by mythrwy »

01100011 wrote: post #480
mythrwy wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how much "structural" racism actually exists in the US at this point. There are no doubt pockets and they should be rooted out. Personal racism exists and will probably never go away. It would be nice if it did. I do think people get profiled and hassled because other people who look like that have done XXX and cops see a possible pattern. This isn't fair to innocent people at all but I suspect this has…

I think the Amy Cooper/Christian Cooper incident from a few weeks ago was the most important 'teachable moment' that we've had in years. I am somewhat disappointed that it was overshadowed by protests against police brutality, because I thought it was a very 'teachable moment' that illustrated the type of racism that still exists behind a facade of tolerance. Police abuse is sort of a separate issue relating to train…

"That doesn't negate the experiences of people of color, it just adds another facet to the way people can prejudge you. If anything, it should illustrate how bad things could be if you weren't white."

Yep that was exactly my point and why I related the story. I learned that people really are profiled and harassed based on their looks or certain assumptions about them. It really does happen.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#548

Post by tootie »

smsm42 wrote: post #373
metrokoi wrote: post #90

Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from…

> However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission That's a shining example of weasel speak. They don't explicitly say it's not risky - because that would be plain lying, it is obviously risky - but they are saying they are not condemning it as risky. Which most people would take as implying it's not actually risky - even though they are not saying that. They…

This isn't weasel speak at all. They're pretty clear that it's risky. They're just saying that they won't condemn protestors as taking frivolous risks the way anti-lockdown protestors or fun-seekers are. Police brutality, systemic racism, income inequality are all major public health risks in their own right.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#549

Post by mannykannot »

manfredo wrote: post #283
caconym_ wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where'd they "tell us there is no risk from these protests"? The letter you linked explicitly advises us to "prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest [and] provide increased access to testing and care for people in the affected communities, especially when they or their family members put themselves at risk by attending protests." They just seem to think protesting America's rampa…

On average the police kill ~80 unarmed people each year, of any race [1]. By comparison, 40 million people are unemployed as a result of the pandemic and lockdown. Certainly, the impact of someone unjustly killed is vastly larger than that of someone laid off or furloughed. But is it 500,000 times greater? These are different issues. They aren't equivalent, but they're comparable at least. Pointing out the inconsiste…

If these were random accidents, you might just have a point, but they are neither random, nor accidental in the cases in question.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#550

Post by [deleted] »

metrokoi wrote: post #90

Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from…

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