Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds • Hacker News Board

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#71

Post by Balgair » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 8:11 PM UTC

darkteflon wrote: post #15

netsectoday wrote: post #7

Reading this article as a millennial really hits home as I remember entering the workforce as a teenager mid 2001 as soon as I could drive (months before 9/11), re-entering the workforce as a young adult early 2008 as soon as I had a degree (months before the great recession), then building a company as an adult for two years and launching it January 2020 (months before the end of the world). There have been no break…

We must be the same age - this has been my experience exactly. You just have to find a way to laugh about it, don’t you. Laugh, and sob quietly into your pillow at 3am.

Is pillow some new brand of vodka I'm unaware of? ;P

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#72

Post by elhudy » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

qqqwerty wrote: post #69

elhudy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a fairly narrow view of the issue. Actually, I'm taking a broader view of the issue. >article is focused on economic prospects of our generation, many of the ramifications of which will not play out for decades My response is not focused on the economic ($$) future of millennials. In fact, I am not even in disagreement that millennials are disadvantaged economically particularly when looking at CoL and debt.…

I think you are greatly overestimating the impact of technology on peoples QOL. The HN crowd are likely to be heavy tech users, but your average person is not. The average person might get their video from Netflix instead of Cable TV now, and they might use social networking (which has its downsides) instead of phone lines, but they aren't playing MMOGs or taking MOOCs. For example, in my own circle of hobbies. Fishi…

>For example, in my own circle of hobbies. Fishing is getting worse[1]. Surfing is difficult because costal real estate is crazy expensive. Gardening is also difficult due to real estate, etc.. I can think of at least a dozen other activities that are now much harder to participate in due to rising real estate prices, climate change, or wealth inequality. For anyone who participates in these activities, there is a real loss in QOL.

You're using a ban on abalone fishing as an example of how hobbies are "becoming harder to participate in"? I'm sorry, but that's a massive generalization and a ridiculous stretch. The boom in technology over the past 30 years has undeniably enabled free learning, and while you can point at niche examples as outliers, you would be grasping at straws.

>Also, I think you are presenting a false dichotomy. Your suggestions is that millennials should be content because technological progress offsets the loss of economic opportunity. This is a false choice. We can have both with the right mix of policy. No one said to the boomers "You can have good economic opportunity, or you can have technological advancements, pick one". In their own lifetimes, they also saw huge advancements in medicine, infrastructure, communication, and tech.

Can you help me to understand how suggesting more variables be brought into the equation when comparing generational success is a false dichotomy? I think you're presenting a straw man. My comment was that I am content due to reasons not considered in the article, and that maybe those reasons should be considered when looking at the population as a whole and comparing them cross-generationally.

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#73

Post by qqqwerty » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

elhudy wrote: post #72

qqqwerty wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are greatly overestimating the impact of technology on peoples QOL. The HN crowd are likely to be heavy tech users, but your average person is not. The average person might get their video from Netflix instead of Cable TV now, and they might use social networking (which has its downsides) instead of phone lines, but they aren't playing MMOGs or taking MOOCs. For example, in my own circle of hobbies. Fishi…

>For example, in my own circle of hobbies. Fishing is getting worse[1]. Surfing is difficult because costal real estate is crazy expensive. Gardening is also difficult due to real estate, etc.. I can think of at least a dozen other activities that are now much harder to participate in due to rising real estate prices, climate change, or wealth inequality. For anyone who participates in these activities, there is a re…

> My comment was that I am content due to reasons not considered in the article, and that maybe those reasons should be considered when looking at the population as a whole and comparing them cross-generationally.

You suggest adding more variables, and I recommended that we extend that beyond technology and then you summarily dismiss those concerns. Abalone is a very niche fishery, but my broader point was that our environment has been significantly degraded for a number of reasons, and for people who value the environment, whether it be for fishing, hiking, or whatever, they have experienced a loss relative to the generations before them. This also holds for anything that requires real estate. For example musicians are finding it much harder to make ends meet in cities due to loss of studio space and event venues. And even technology has not been a net win for everyone. Ask a journalist how they fell about the internet? How about your local bookstore?

I am glad you are content. Enjoy it. But recognize that you are literally one of the few winners in this economy. A highly paid tech worker has likely just experienced the best decade in history for their particular profession. But that is a very narrow segment of our society, and a large chunk of our generation has lost ground relative to their cross-generational peers.

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#74

Post by api » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 11:24 PM UTC

msamwald wrote: post #57

game_the0ry wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: 9/11 You and I are in agreement - that day set the tone for America's future in: * economics - on his way back to the fed reserve in NYC via helicopter in autumn 2001, Greenspan saw the rubble of WTC and decided to drop the fed funds rate, and it eventually hit 1% in 2004, which is why asset prices (real estate, stocks, bonds) are so high today and why we had a housing boom during that time (2004-2008) * internat…

Non-American here. I think 9/11 has global significance that goes beyond its impact on the US. It destroyed the narrative that liberal democracy, free markets and technology had removed all obstacles that would keep us from converging towards a peaceful, secular and progressive global society.

I think it started the collapse of that narrative. The failure of the Arab Spring and the rise of Xi Jinpeng did the rest.

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#75

Post by darkteflon » Mon, Jun 08, 2020, 12:47 AM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #71

darkteflon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We must be the same age - this has been my experience exactly. You just have to find a way to laugh about it, don’t you. Laugh, and sob quietly into your pillow at 3am.

Is pillow some new brand of vodka I'm unaware of? ;P

Vodka works great too but just be aware that if you’ve got small kids you’ll have to be up in two hours to sing nursery rhymes ;)

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#76

Post by Mirioron » Mon, Jun 08, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #32

Mirioron wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent poster's point is that life has significantly improved in ways that aren't easily expressed through monetary value. If you lived in the 70s you could not have the convenience of a smartphone no matter how rich you were. People living in the 70s didn't have the ability to use a smartphone, use wikipedia, play video games, post on social media. You could've been the richest person that has ever lived and you…

My smartphone is in many ways a curse and a burden, but I need to carry it because I'm expected to answer phone calls within seconds no matter where I am, and text messages within minutes. In the '90s, I could go out for a whole weekend and come home and check my answering machine and nobody would be offended, because that was the norm. I could still opt to live like that now, but the repercussions would be much more…

It's undoubtedly true that from an individual's perspective it can seem like a curse. However, what's important in discussions like this is the utility it provides to the population - how it makes people's lives and their economic activity more efficient. Better communication methods are obviously useful there.

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#77

Post by elhudy » Mon, Jun 08, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

qqqwerty wrote: post #73

elhudy wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For example, in my own circle of hobbies. Fishing is getting worse[1]. Surfing is difficult because costal real estate is crazy expensive. Gardening is also difficult due to real estate, etc.. I can think of at least a dozen other activities that are now much harder to participate in due to rising real estate prices, climate change, or wealth inequality. For anyone who participates in these activities, there is a re…

> My comment was that I am content due to reasons not considered in the article, and that maybe those reasons should be considered when looking at the population as a whole and comparing them cross-generationally. You suggest adding more variables, and I recommended that we extend that beyond technology and then you summarily dismiss those concerns. Abalone is a very niche fishery, but my broader point was that our e…

>I am glad you are content. Enjoy it. But recognize that you are literally one of the few winners in this economy. A highly paid tech worker has likely just experienced the best decade in history for their particular profession. But that is a very narrow segment of our society, and a large chunk of our generation has lost ground relative to their cross-generational peers.

But I'm not the only winner. Society as a whole wins through advances in technology. That's my point, and that's what gives birth to the entrepreneurial spirit found here.

If you don't think so we can probably agree to disagree.

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#78

Post by api » Mon, Jun 08, 2020, 1:51 AM UTC

saltcured wrote: post #61

api wrote: post #19

I am so nostalgic for the 1990s. I am a young Xer, almost an old millennial, kind of on the cusp. I've wondered if this is a cognitive artifact of my age in the 90s, teens to 20, but I have asked older and even a few younger people and many have also expressed nostalgia for that decade. Boomers and much older Xers often agree. My teens were rough anyway. It was not my personal best decade, but I would go back in a se…

I think you would have to look for additional sources or markers of your experience to explain this memory of yours. It is not just the decade nor your age at the time. In my recollection, cultural products like grunge and industrial music, or even the overall Gen-X slacker stereotype, did not come from a place of great optimism. They weren't ironic masks hiding a playful wink, they were sardonic expressions of angst…

It's definitely not possible to be scientific with this stuff, but I really don't agree. While the 90s were definitely not utopia, the dark edgy stuff was surface and there was a great deal of optimism underneath. Today I would say its backwards with fluffy happy pop culture masking a very deep malaise.

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#79

Post by saltcured » Mon, Jun 08, 2020, 4:31 AM UTC

api wrote: post #78

saltcured wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you would have to look for additional sources or markers of your experience to explain this memory of yours. It is not just the decade nor your age at the time. In my recollection, cultural products like grunge and industrial music, or even the overall Gen-X slacker stereotype, did not come from a place of great optimism. They weren't ironic masks hiding a playful wink, they were sardonic expressions of angst…

It's definitely not possible to be scientific with this stuff, but I really don't agree. While the 90s were definitely not utopia, the dark edgy stuff was surface and there was a great deal of optimism underneath. Today I would say its backwards with fluffy happy pop culture masking a very deep malaise.

There were definitely other gen Xers who did not experience the same optimistic 90s you speak of. To many of us, the changes after 9/11 were merely the surfacing of a darkness we already knew within our world and our nation. There was already a malaise from the 80s and a sense of a disneyesque veneer covering shameful realities.

To be clear, I am not trying to invalidate your memory, but only address your opening aside about where it might come from. There was certainly more than one experience of gen X and more than one experience of the 90s...

Re: Data and graphs showing millenials' bad economic odds

#80

Post by api » Mon, Jun 08, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

saltcured wrote: post #79

api wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely not possible to be scientific with this stuff, but I really don't agree. While the 90s were definitely not utopia, the dark edgy stuff was surface and there was a great deal of optimism underneath. Today I would say its backwards with fluffy happy pop culture masking a very deep malaise.

There were definitely other gen Xers who did not experience the same optimistic 90s you speak of. To many of us, the changes after 9/11 were merely the surfacing of a darkness we already knew within our world and our nation. There was already a malaise from the 80s and a sense of a disneyesque veneer covering shameful realities. To be clear, I am not trying to invalidate your memory, but only address your opening asi…

Yeah, this stuff always comes with "your mileage may vary."

What I remember is a lot of very optimistic ideas being discussed openly without a lot of cynicism or irony. Go find some old Mondo 2000 or other early-mid 90s futurist material.

I also remember a wave of new technology people could touch and interact with: the PC and Internet revolutions. Shiny starships are awesome but I will probably never ride in one.

The 80s-90s was also the last era of musical innovation. If you include the 80s too there was: hip hop / rap, drum and bass, techno/rave and all its variant genres, grunge, shoegaze, dreampop, math rock, new wave, synth rock, I could keep going...

Since 2001: very little except slight variations on the above and reboots of older forms. For some reason music totally collapsed after 2001. I've toyed around with economic interpretations but ultimately it feels like there's some psychological wall there. We can't think of anything new.