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America is giving up on the pandemic?

theatlantic.com

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Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#321

Post by Kevin_S »

manfredo wrote: post #283
caconym_ wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where'd they "tell us there is no risk from these protests"? The letter you linked explicitly advises us to "prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest [and] provide increased access to testing and care for people in the affected communities, especially when they or their family members put themselves at risk by attending protests." They just seem to think protesting America's rampa…

On average the police kill ~80 unarmed people each year, of any race [1]. By comparison, 40 million people are unemployed as a result of the pandemic and lockdown. Certainly, the impact of someone unjustly killed is vastly larger than that of someone laid off or furloughed. But is it 500,000 times greater? These are different issues. They aren't equivalent, but they're comparable at least. Pointing out the inconsiste…

They are not only protesting the killing of unarmed black people, but all aspects of the structural bias of American police and the justice system against blacks. These biases affect much more than the extreme cases of the killing of unarmed black people.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#322

Post by sintaxi »

robbrown451 wrote: post #311
zarathustreal wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda disgusting how personal beliefs can influence professionals, no?

Why? Would you prefer that because someone is "professional" they discard all their personal ethics?

That is the very definition of professional.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#323

Post by zarathustreal »

matwood wrote: post #255
cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I feel like a lot of people are afraid to talk about anything but the protests lately, lest they be branded as not supporting the protests. That's exactly it. I've some friends who are on the whole rather apolitical, in fact I'd call them politically ignorant as it's not something they tend to invest any time into, but who either run relatively large social media pages as a side hustle or do so professionally on beh…

> From chatting to them over the last week or two, they've said they've been put in a place whereby they can't not post something in support of the protests in either case. This tells me the protests are working. When people who normally do not pay attention are forced to see what's happening, then change can occur. It's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people as they come to terms with their own privilege and…

>When people who normally do not pay attention are forced to see what's happening, then change can occur. It's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people as they come to terms with their own privilege

Unfortunately you're very correct there, though not in the way I think you're assuming. Force people with influence, power, money, ability to be above common problems, to see what's happening and you're not going to get a pat on the back. Change is certainly going to happen, and it's not going to be the change you're hoping for.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#324

Post by danenania »

achenatx wrote: post #294

Just wanted to add that the abolish the police sentiment isnt as inane as it sounds on the surface. Abolish the police is about taking away responsibilities that police have today and giving them to people more suitable. Police - people trained for aggression with weapons to stop violent criminals should not be handling: 1) mental health 2) homeless 3) drug addiction 4) domestic violence 5) traffic stops etc etc They…

This is the strategy used at Burning Man, and it seems to work quite well from what I’ve heard, though it’s admittedly not a very representative slice of society. There are “rangers” who deal with safety issues or disputes, and camps devoted to caring for people who might be having a bad trip (or other kind of episode) in a compassionate way. They will only call the police as a last resort.

I think a similar approach at the community level would be great to see in the US. Rather than fighting the police head-on to try to make them respect our rights as they should (a tall order), we could instead try to make them largely redundant. Of course, there will always be some situations where armed police are necessary, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s less than 1% of the calls they’re currently responding to.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#325

Post by kadoban »

manfredo wrote: post #283
caconym_ wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where'd they "tell us there is no risk from these protests"? The letter you linked explicitly advises us to "prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest [and] provide increased access to testing and care for people in the affected communities, especially when they or their family members put themselves at risk by attending protests." They just seem to think protesting America's rampa…

On average the police kill ~80 unarmed people each year, of any race [1]. By comparison, 40 million people are unemployed as a result of the pandemic and lockdown. Certainly, the impact of someone unjustly killed is vastly larger than that of someone laid off or furloughed. But is it 500,000 times greater? These are different issues. They aren't equivalent, but they're comparable at least. Pointing out the inconsiste…

There is _far_ more harm in unjust policing than is counted in deaths per year.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#326

Post by jointpdf »

downerending wrote: post #233
garrickvanburen wrote: post #212

No, not giving up. Just reprioritized. All I think we’ve proven is that a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and far less comfortable with the police violence. There’s nothing in here about disregarding recommendations from epidemiologists. It’s about saying enough is enough on a persistent threat, not an acute one.

> a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and far less comfortable with the police violence The chances of experiencing life-changing injury or death from either are vanishingly small. Too bad we can't get people this excited about obeying traffic regulations.

Unlike people, not all deaths are created equal (in my opinion). What I mean is: a death caused by systematic oppression/racism (especially from an entity whose core purpose is to “serve and protect”) is in some deontological sense worse than a death resulting from e.g. a car accident or even a virus. Some things defy utilitarian calculus.

Also, you have to consider that there is widespread and life changing psychological injury (trauma) inflicted on minorities from years, decades, centuries of systemic injustice along every axis of life. Imagine being a child and growing up with a worldview that you and your loved ones are in constant danger (from people that are supposed to protect you, no less) based solely on the color of your skin. I keep thinking of the powerful words of George Floyd’s friend Stephen Jackson in this clip (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-0JdWfUJYYU):

>”We, as black men, have seen a lot of stuff as far as people being murdered and taken from us, right? But now, not only it’s been seen by us and our brothers, but it’s been seen by our children now. So I’m sitting there watching this and my daughter...my daughter tells me, ‘Dad I can’t leave you, cause I seen what happened to your friend, and I think you need me.’ My daughter is 6 years old. For my daughter to see that, and tell me that I need her at 6, imagine the pain and frustration that’s in my mind right now”.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#327

Post by zarathustreal »

robbrown451 wrote: post #311
zarathustreal wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda disgusting how personal beliefs can influence professionals, no?

Why? Would you prefer that because someone is "professional" they discard all their personal ethics?

Absolutely. It's not possible for _anyone_ to have an infinite perspective, nor one even close to wide enough that I would trust them to make my decisions for me. If you're a professional it is your _duty_ to ignore your personal beliefs. Otherwise you'd end up with doctors refusing to treat people they disagree with, lawyers refusing to defend people they disagree with and so on. This opens the gate to emotional and psychological manipulation wide, and given the rise of social media and this modern lemming mentality I see so commonly that would be an absolute disaster.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#328

Post by Gibbon1 »

refurb wrote: post #319
ianai wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s crazy though is for the first time in my life I actually fear for the future existence of the US. I watched 9/11 in real time and that didn’t feel as much of a threat to our existence as this does. There’s an actual civil war movement among the extremists now. I don’t think that existed during the civil rights movement days, even. Nor even the Vietnam fallout.

If you think things are worse now than in the 1960's, I don't know what to tell you. They were way worse. Multiple politicians assassinated. Major multi-day riots across multiple cities with hundred dead. Then a president being impeached. 2020 doesn't even come close to the 1960's.

I remember the 1980 Miami Riots and the 1992 LA riots. This is basically nothing like that. Fundamental difference the protestors aren't the ones engaging in violence, the cops are.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#329

Post by serf »

robbrown451 wrote: post #311
zarathustreal wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda disgusting how personal beliefs can influence professionals, no?

Why? Would you prefer that because someone is "professional" they discard all their personal ethics?

> Why? Would you prefer that because someone is "professional" they discard all their personal ethics?

it's never black-and-white like that.

if my professional doctor's personal ethics includes clauses that motivate him to seek non-standard and unproven treatments, yes, i'd prefer they discard those.

I would prefer it if employees at Planned Parenthood didn't have personal ethical clauses that caused them to purposely give incorrect data and wrong phone numbers to women seeking abortions because their personal ethics sway them to do so.

If I were a very famous politician that had polarizing views on something, i'd prefer if my taxi driver remained a professional rather than kicking my ass out of the car because their personal ethics required that they do that to someone that they view as a political enemy.

I'd prefer prisoners be fed , even if it's against the personal ethics of the food service workers to feed and take care of felony rapists.

There are a lot of professions that require professionals to have a certain level of detachment from 'pedestrians'. It's not at all uncommon.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#330

Post by statguy »

manfredo wrote: post #283
caconym_ wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where'd they "tell us there is no risk from these protests"? The letter you linked explicitly advises us to "prepare for an increased number of infections in the days following a protest [and] provide increased access to testing and care for people in the affected communities, especially when they or their family members put themselves at risk by attending protests." They just seem to think protesting America's rampa…

On average the police kill ~80 unarmed people each year, of any race [1]. By comparison, 40 million people are unemployed as a result of the pandemic and lockdown. Certainly, the impact of someone unjustly killed is vastly larger than that of someone laid off or furloughed. But is it 500,000 times greater? These are different issues. They aren't equivalent, but they're comparable at least. Pointing out the inconsiste…

Where are you getting 80 from? The link says 1,043 in the past year. Did you mean 80 per month?
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