America is giving up on the pandemic? • Hacker News Board

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#251

Post by realtalk_sp » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #54

jbay808 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assembly is valuable, but there's a certain misery that comes with self-isolating for two weeks living on canned beans, having many businesses shut down, and working so hard at this to protect the lives of your elderly parents or your asthmatic sibling... ... And then watching 10,000 people pack together downtown exercising their right to free assembly, and likely undoing all those months of progress.

> there's a certain misery that comes with [...] watching 10,000 people pack together downtown exercising their right to free assembly, and likely undoing all those months of progress. Yep, that's called privilege. And I'm not even trying to be snarky. From the perspective of the protesters, taking this opportunity to protest and possibly achieve change means hopefully lowering the general mortality risk for generati…

This is a baffling argument.

Far more lives are threatened by coronavirus today than will be threatened by police brutality over the next several decades [1]. You're basically saying that immunocompromised and elderly persons are acceptable collateral damage.

One thing that's been lost in the noise is that death by police brutality is a vanishingly small problem: less than 0.0003% of the population per year (and most of those are White people).

And the ultimate irony is far more Black people are going to die as a result of these protests (since Black communities are disproportionately affected by the virus) than will be saved by whatever temporary curtailment of police brutality this yields.

Those are the real facts. Not the alternative ones you and people like you would like us to focus on. It's like it suddenly became acceptable to wantonly suspend rationality because it suits certain interests.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_deadly_force_in_...

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#252

Post by Shivetya » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:33 PM UTC

metrokoi wrote: post #90

Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from…

Why are they taking this position. Simple, it cost them nothing to do so all the while letting them claim they understand. This is nothing more than #hashtag politics. A do nothing stance because no risk is taken

So yes of course there is risk. However as with anything political no honest discussion is permitted. This is why people calling out the violence and looting are being hushed or intimidated because politicians don't want to talk about that side of the issue. The same politicians who have been building up the police state in blue cities for generations.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#253

Post by Nasrudith » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

fullshark wrote: post #63

jbay808 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assembly is valuable, but there's a certain misery that comes with self-isolating for two weeks living on canned beans, having many businesses shut down, and working so hard at this to protect the lives of your elderly parents or your asthmatic sibling... ... And then watching 10,000 people pack together downtown exercising their right to free assembly, and likely undoing all those months of progress.

It's not just misery, it feels fundamentally unjust. Basically some rule violations are deemed more equal than others, so why should I care anymore? If we're not "all in this together" why should I suffer?

That has long been a principle of law, not all violations are equal because of extenuating circumstances. One sizes fits all ignoring circumstances is foolishness, not justice even if it leads to 'equality'. There is a difference between smashing a window of a car to rob it or for shits and giggles, and doing it to save a life.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#254

Post by wwweston » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

mberning wrote: post #2

Why shouldn’t they? People were browbeaten for having the audacity to want to return to work. Now politicians are out marching shoulder to shoulder with thousands of other people. We also were told that Georgia was going to be a disaster for reopening too soon and that has not come to pass. It’s good to know that “believe science” and “stay home stay safe” are completely negotiable based on what is politically expedi…

I'm team "stay home" and I have an uneasy relationship with these protests: I don't love protest as a form of engagement in the first place (it has its place, but its has a lot of limits), and an epidemic wouldn't be my choice for timing it.

That said:

* We had the "I don't wanna stay at home" and "masks are tyranny" protestors a month ago, too... but as far as I know, most governments pretty much let those happen. Hell, they let a lot of those happened with the protestors heavily armed. Protestors drew a lot of criticism but more or less got to do what they wanted.

* Similarly, it's pretty clear that most governments aren't thrilled about BLM protest crowds from a public health standpoint, but have adopted a range of tactics from "cooperate and keep peace" to "actively suppress." Protestors have drawn a mix of support and criticism and... in some cases got a beat down and trip through arrest processing, but in other cases kinda got to do what they wanted. It's not like social justice was just given a pass here; in some ways it actually has faced heavier resistance.

* If we're comparing motives here, are we weighing "the audacity to want to return to work"? Or the audacity to want other people to return to work? And how would we compare that with, say, the desire to be free from being murdered or otherwise singled out for selective enforcement or brutality by officers of state?

* Government direction didn't cause a retreat from social/economic engagement, it coordinated it. Most people would have done exactly the same thing they're doing now absent official direction, just at different times/thresholds, leading to the same eventual economic results but less effective epidemic mitigation. And the only thing that will get everyone back to work is either nihilism or trust that risks are well-managed.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#255

Post by matwood » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #171

lostapathy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a lot of it, for better or worse. I feel like a lot of people are afraid to talk about anything but the protests lately, lest they be branded as not supporting the protests.

>I feel like a lot of people are afraid to talk about anything but the protests lately, lest they be branded as not supporting the protests. That's exactly it. I've some friends who are on the whole rather apolitical, in fact I'd call them politically ignorant as it's not something they tend to invest any time into, but who either run relatively large social media pages as a side hustle or do so professionally on beh…

> From chatting to them over the last week or two, they've said they've been put in a place whereby they can't not post something in support of the protests in either case.

This tells me the protests are working. When people who normally do not pay attention are forced to see what's happening, then change can occur. It's going to be uncomfortable for a lot of people as they come to terms with their own privilege and the plight of other groups. But, growth doesn't occur without first being uncomfortable.

> sentiment around their movement, as dissent or even public agnosticism toward it has been all but quashed

Sentiment will be judged through action and change.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#256

Post by n9 » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:34 PM UTC

glofish wrote: post #159

anticonformist wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These protests are going to result in the deaths of thousands of people. They are clearly irresponsible during a pandemic. Gathering in large groups with no physical distancing is tantamount to conspiring to commit mass murder. The problem of racial inequality has existed for "hundreds of years" so why not push the protests back 1 year so it won't unnecessarily cost many people their lives? There is no reasonable sug…

Look up the Massachusettes death rates. https://www.mass.gov/doc/covid-19-dashboard-june-7-2020/down... In the age group of under 50 years old, the death rate due to COVID 19 is 10 out 100,000 (!), that is half of that attributed to the flu, no seriously it is very unlikely that the protest will have much effect

if everyone that protested self isolates at all other times for 20 days after they stop protesting, yes, I agree.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#257

Post by evan_ » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:36 PM UTC

vzqx wrote: post #166

saiya-jin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question from non-US person - isn't one of the main reasons to also get some anonymity? As IT guy I know damn well how good face recognition software works these days, en masse. With all the biometric data US govt has on everybody, pairing would not be that hard for many.

The (peaceful) protests aren't illegal so anonymity isn't a major concern. Police might be violent towards protestors in the moment, but there's zero risk of the government tracking down and punishing protesters after the fact.

> there's zero risk of the government tracking down and punishing protesters after the fact.

ehhh I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#258

Post by neonate » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

stonogo wrote: post #235

neonate wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is the double standard with which some protestors were condemned while others were lauded based solely on which causes (and which classes of people) the commenters happened to politically support. It's transparently unprincipled, to the point of being a sad joke.

That's not a double standard. That's just a standard. When one group of people is holding signs that say "stop murdering people" and the other group is holding signs that say "I need a haircut," and you're mad that "the commenters" are not treating them the same, the problem is not with the commenters.

You're making my point. You politically support one side more than the other, right down to belittling the side you unsupport as "I need a haircut". Maybe I agree with you politically, but when arguments from principle pivot from one week to the next based on which way the politics point, it's not really about principle.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#259

Post by achenatx » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

HuShifang wrote: post #242

metrokoi wrote: post #90

Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from…

Public health is concerned with the health of the public -- which includes health issues induced by stress, poor nutrition, pollution, etc. (Ever notice how African Americans' life expectancy is much lower than that of white Americans? Public health experts have. They study it.) So, in this case, they're calculating that making strides against inequality will be worth the cost of more COVID-19 cases.

there are no calculations being done. They believe in the cause therefore it is justified. They dont believe in the cause of the other side (freedom of movement/commerce) and therefore dont believe they are justified.

They are pretending to base it on science, when it is just another political opinion.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#260

Post by mberning » Sun, Jun 07, 2020, 9:38 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #213

goatinaboat wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “open letter” signed by 1200 experts stating that protesting was no risk, except for protests against the lockdown itself, was also mind boggling in its audacity.

"One in every 1,000 Black men and boys can expect to be killed by police in this country". If we presume average years of life lost per black person’s death is 50 years, then Covid is less deadly. To lower risk, black people could stay at home and wait for better times...

That is so stupid. There are some 40 million black folks in the US. Assume half are men. 20,000,000 divided by 1,000 is 20,000. The actual number of unarmed blacks killed by the police per year is generally 20 or less. Last year it was like 10. You can look it up on the Washington Post database.